Adding a shrimp to aid in cycle question

[Altohombre]

the strange part is that I barely even had much ammonia in my tank at any point since I started testing 4 days in. I have always had my filter, skimmer, and powerhead running since the start and I have 60 pounds of live sand and 52 lbs of live rock which I thought would greatly speed things up having all live stuff. The only thing that wasn't cured was the Tonga Lalo rock which Dr. Foster + Co said was uncured. Do you think the nitrates went high when I used a toothbrush to clean the rock about halfway through the cycle?


P.S.-I am only doing fish and inverts planned at this time so I will go for 20, but shoot for less than that.

 

[UnderwaterWorld]

with good stuff your tank can cycle fast, I could see getting past the ammonia spike in 4 days

 

[Altohombre]

so if my "good stuff" can clear my ammonia spike fast, how come I have such a high Nitrate level that won't go away?

 

[Altohombre]

p.s.- my tank barely has any algae growth which I just read is a sign of high nitrates.

 

[fatman]

Your ammonia is the first thing to show up. Often within 24 hours or even less. If your denitrification bacteria in your rock were at high levels to begin with they could have multiplied well enough to break the ammonia down into nitrates within four days, and with the newer high levels converted the decomposing shrimps ammonia to nitrates without the ammonia reaching readable levels. As for converting all the nitrates to nitrites that is a different denitrifying bacteria that needs to multiply enough to make a noticeable drop in your nitrates. That shrimp loaded your tank up well so that will require quite some time possibly weeks if you wait for the bacteria to do all the work. The denitrifying bacteria that break nitrites down into a gas are even slower and usually much less abundant as they live deep within your live rock and at the bottom of mature deep sand beds. Surface bacteria do not change nitrites into a gas. Most people do water changes for reduction of nitrites, and then develop methods to prevent an introduction of many organic compounds to prevent large amounts of ammonia, and their breakdown products. The older mature tanks can take a rotting shrimp or fish with out a lot of difficulty due to fully developed levels of denitrifying bacteria. Algae is typically considered a by product of high nitrates among st other excesses of nutrients such as phosphates, and poor circulation and the subsequent high CO2 levels preferred by algae. Phosphates are typically leached by live rock and live sand during tank cycling especially with reduction in pH. That is why the use of phosphate absorbers are recommended when cycling with live rock and or live sand.

 

[Bifferwine]

Fatman is right. The bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrite and the bacteria that get rid of nitrate are two different kinds. Most of us never have any problems getting ample populations of the ammonia-nitrite bacteria (hence why you should never see ammonia spikes in our tanks after the initial cycle), but still always have nitrate unless we do water changes.

To get your nitrates down you will just have to keep doing water changes. Make sure that if you are using a canister, trickle or wet/dry filter that you keep it very clean.

 

[Altohombre]

2/4 update:

I did a 2nd water change last night (about a 33% change). I checked my Nitrates today and they are now at a solid 40 on the reading. Before I couldn't tell because it was somewhere between 40 and 80, slightly closer to 80. So the water change is working slowly. I added a small amount of flake food to the tank because I was informed that this would keep the good bacteria alive and multiplying otherwise the water changes would diminish the good stuff. Also just curious... I have a 20 lb bag of Live sand I have not used until now, but I am starting to think I could use a little more in areas of my tank. If I add this sand in small amounts, would it start a mini cycle? If I waited a couple months for my tank to be more established and then use the sand would that be a better idea?

 

[reeffreak]

Add the sand now while there is no fish and corals.I doubt if it starts another cycle.

 

[fatman]

I agree with reeffreak. It is better to get it done now. It might kick up some ammonia and then nitrite and finally nitrate, but it will have less impact now than later. Unless you wait for much later, like 9 months or a year from now. Then your tank wouldn't even hardly notice the added sand unless you applied it deeply all it once. Additional sand is best only added about half an inch at a time once a sand bed is developed.

 

[Altohombre]

well I am still debating. I have 2" of sand give or take a little either way around my tank. However, most people say 1" or less, or 3"+ for DSB. I am afraid that if I add too much sand that it will cover up too much of the rock, but I also want enough room for my future snails and watchman goby to play in. Is 2" good enough?

2nd question: Could my nitrates be high because the intake to my canister filter is in the back right corner of my tank near my powerhead and heater that may cause a slightly slower water flow spot?

 

[fatman]

That mainly depends on the size of the particles of sand/grave. And also what you expect from the bed. If you just want to have it assist the rock in converting organic wastes to Nitrates it doesn't need as deep a layer as it does if you want to have it assist in converting nitrates to a gas. Most people stop at providing enough gravel to assist the rock into converting wastes to the nitrate stage and do water changes to remove the nitrates rather than depend on their rock and sand bed for that. Some people use a refugium with macro algae and or a deep sand bed to cut back on nitrate production and to convert nitrates to a gas. For effective nitrate to gas conversion you would probably need at least another inch preferably two inches with sugar grade sand, and two to four more inches with coarser sand/gravel. If you have anything in your canister filter that has been in there for any length of time during the cycling it could very well be the source of your continuing nitrates, with the exception of phosphate absorbing material. You should not have any filtration media such as a filter pad, sponge, bio balls or bio rings. Even charcoal should be in the filter no more than a few days at a time when there is anything in heavy concentrations which could quickly fill its pores, such as a rotting shrimp or die off material from live rock. The slower water flow is doubtfully the problem though. A goby would definitely appreciate a deeper sand bed. Just put it on /2 inch at a time and place it deeper where there is no rock and at the rear of the tank. The Goby is going to move it around no matter what you do.

 

[Altohombre]

I have had all the canister filter material in the filter the whole cycle. I just recently cleaned it 2 days ago. I also have additional carbon in my aquac remora preskimmer return reservoir. So you think I should take out the canister filter media and my carbon until my nitrates are down?

 

[fatman]

I would take everything out of the canister filter that your not willing to clean or replace every couple of days. You do not want the filter to function as a biological filter and therefore have the bacteria building up in the canister filter media competing with the live rock and live sand bacteria whose bacteria you want to multiply instead. There is potentially so much junk in your water during the cycling due to the shrimp and any die off in the rock and sand for the carbon to last any more than a day or two before its pores are filled up so stop using it until your cycle is over also. If you have some phosban or equivalent throw some in a media bag and put that in the canister filter, other wise just use the canister filter for increased tank circulation until the cycling is complete. Unless you wish to wait a long time for your sand and rock to convert the nitrate to a gas you need to lower your nitrates through water changes or grow a lot of macro algae and harvest it regularly. With a new tank, water changes are the normal approach to lowering the nitrates. It can take even with diligent efforts 6 to 12 months to establish a mature tank system that does not require some water changes to maintain a low nitrate level. These system besides the standard live rock, live sand and skimmers could use things like refugiums, deep sand beds, algae scrubbers, export systems based on algae or even soft corals and large fish. Some people even export through replacing coralline covered rocks with base rocks and swapping out sand and therefore the detritus and other organics it contains. If you used the canister filter with some form of sponge or apd etc in it the entire time during the cycling you basically spent the time and effort mostly cycling your canister filter into a bacteriological filter. Basically you cycled your filter more than your rock or sand system as the circulation through your filter basically assured that the filter media received better exposure to the organic wastes in an oxygenated stream than did your rock or sand. If you added any thing like fish waste or organic food or shrimp now it is a pretty safe bet that another cycle would probably start up. What is your present ammonia and nitrite reading at this time. If they are zero, add about a half teaspoon of fish food of any type and check your ammonia and nitrite in a couple days. If your lucky the will stay at zero or near zero. If not you will go through another small cycle until the rock and sand bacteria multiply until they can replace the work that was being done by the bacteria in the canister filter.

 

[Altohombre]

I did like you said and took out my filter media and ran the just cleaned canister empty and all this white "snow-like" substance went flying all over my tank. Should I put the media back in? I don't want this crap settling in my tank.

 

[fatman]

The only thing that could be snow white in your tank is either sand substrate very fine particles or precipitated calcium. Unless for some reason some of the calcium precipitated when you first made up your tank water and is now being blown around by the increased velocity of your filter without any media in it to cause restriction, then it would have to be sand substrate. Is your return line directed downward toward your sand bed/gravel? It is unlikely that you could have precipitated a lot of calcium without seeing a snow storm when it happened. Was there any white stuff in the filter canister when you took the media out of it? Allegedly it is not possible to raise the pH with Reef Builder enough to cause A pH rise large enough to cause calcium precipitation. If you have a test kit to check Calcium levels you can check the calcium level. I really suspect though that it is fine sand particles. If you did precipitate calcium you would likely have a reading around 300 or lower. Most salt mixes are made up to provide an initial mix up reading of 350 or higher. Your system should not really have a calcium demand yet, as it is doubtful your coralline is doing much yet in the way of growth. Did you add additionl sand, or stir up your existing sand? If the "stuff" is calcium carbonate it will not hurt anything unless you have sugar fine sand for a sand bed, calcium carbonate precipitation likes to form a crust with real fine sand. IE powder fine sand such as 0.1mm or finer.

 

[Altohombre]

well my Oceanic Sea Salt is supposed to have a calcium level of around 470 which is the highest on the marketing I think so that may be a factor. The canister itself just had some brown looking sand/dirt from the rocks look. Nothing too impacting. This is the 2nd cleaning I have done and the first really didn't have anything shoot back into the tank. Since the last one I have added some fish flakes to help keep the good bacteria multiplying and I am thinking that this white stuff may be a breakdown of this not eaten food in terms of Detritus. After a couple of hours it is all settled in the tank. The sand bed which is sugar fine doesn't seem to have been impacted at this point.

 

[fatman]

As long as nitrates are being produced there is food for the bacteria. Feeding food now is just increasing your nitrate levels, as your cycling has probably completed itself. It is no different than having just left the shrimp in, just a smaller scale of feeding done in a little more cyclic fashion. I do not know how much or how often you fed fish food to the tank, but it would take a lot to form anything that would look like a snow storm. Snow storms in a tank are like a wind driven snow storm that is caused by over saturation of calcium and an instantaneous substantial increase of pH. It is usually caused by pouring Kalkwasser into a tank instead of dripping it in. Please do not continue to feed your tank organics. Your nitrates are high because your feeding the tank raw food, which is broken down into ammonia, then nitrite and finally nitrates. Your cycle obvoiusly is over or you would have substantial readings of both ammonia and nitrites, not just heavy nitrates. Your nitrate readings are there because the bacteria has turned the organic inputs into nitrates as they are supposed to. You do not have a mature enough tank to handle breaking down that many nitrates in a short period of time, therefore they are accumulating and must be removed by water changes.If your tank has not cycled an addition of food would cause a sharp rise in ammonia. Then the nitrite level would slowly increase as the bacteria developed to convert the ammonia to nitrite, then finally the ammonia and nitrite levels would drop and the nitrate would go up. If the tank is cycled and you added fish food in a small amount, there would probably be very little or no ammonia or nitrite increase just an increase in nitrates. Hence, a sure indication that your tank has finished its cycle. It is really difficult to accomplish much in a quick or understandable fashion when your following opposing advise from different people. I assumed when you took the shrimp out that the shrimp had and would be the only input og organic matter into your tank other than that which came with your rock and sand. I however had not expected you to follow someones advise to continue to feed the bacteria. I will try to pay better attention to what others are suggesting when there are problems in what should be simple functions, such as cyclings. As for sea salt mixes. I would recommend until you gain more experience that you use several different types of salt mixes. Any salt mix which is high or low in its initial mix requires more understanding in its use than a middle of the road mix. It is very possible that you precipitated some calcium with Oceanic Salt mix if you used tap water with a high pH for mixing your initial water and top off water. Instant Ocean is a safe mix for persons new to marine tanks. You do not need calcium over 350 to 400 unless you have SPS coral.

 

[Altohombre]

The advice I followed was by the most active member of the New Jersey Reefers Club. He is also one of the owners of the store that I will be buying most of my fish from and he seems to be one of those legit store owners who don't skimp on things just to save money, he does things for the health of his fish. Fatman, it isn't easy to just follow one person's advice when there are so many differing opinions. To clarify things, the shrimp was only in the tank for 2 days and this was about a week after I started my cycle. The flake food I have put in the tank was done after my tank was 0 on ammonia and Nitrite and had a nitrate level of 80. The food was only a couple of pinches and done only for 2 days and this was started at about the 16th day. My nitrates are now down to 30 after my 3rd water change and hopefully will be down close to or under 20 after I do my 10 gallon water change right now.

 

[fatman]

Good , but do not feed the tank any more food unless you plan on waiting weeks between cycling and adding fish, the bacteria do not need it. They can go months with out any new food in and still rebound very quickly. Just picture any food you put into the tank now is all going to be converted to algae sooner or later. I try to rely on just a few people in general for advice with my reef tanks. I am a person of science so expect a scientific backing for information I utilize, and those methods should stand up to scientific review by peers of those making the science based claims. If an experiment doesn't produce the same results when repeated in the same fashion by a second, third, fourth......person(s) then I do not place any faith in the information provided by that experiment. Those people I typically turn to for advice/knowledge are Bob Fenner, Anthony Calfro and I like this sites super moderators write ups which show he has taken the time to read and study reefing to a very large degree, plus his being a biologist helps. I think with a little more time Biffer, if she tries, is going to be capable of making as good of contributions as some of the present experts in the field of marine and reef aquariums. Her education proves her capability. Of course now she has a man to side track her. Seriously listening to Biffer is usually a pretty safe bet.
You might want to be a little more specific in what you write, as I am quite pessimistic and therefore mentally picture your putting teaspoons of food in the water daily. Nothing personal, I have seen a lot of extremes in the things people do to there tank systems. I am not trying to be mean or abusive I am, however, very tactless.