ich or no on orchid dottyback

[InsideEdge33]

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Ok here's my deal. I have a 46 gallon bow tank with 2 clown fish (orange n black), watchman goby, 2 green clown gobies, 2 pajama cardinals, 2 blue n yellow damsels and an orchid dottyback. Also 2 peppermint shrimp, 1 starfish, crabs and snails polyps, an anemone, and a couple other coral with 50-60 lbs of live rock.
I am running a fluval fx5 canister filter which I clean monthly with bioballs and carbon. Also a protein skimmer.

Tank has been up and running for 3-4 months with live sand added as substrate. Orchid I got from a friend who had it for a while. All fish and corals are doing fine but I noticed today on top fin of dottyback a little chunk missing with white on both sides. The tail had a piece missing too but no white. Now it's not white dots but like a line running down where it looks torn. I've been keeping up with water changes and cleaning so any suggestions on what it could be? I'm hoping not ich.

Also I bought the 2 damsels and a 3 stripe damsel at same time but he was too aggressive so I took him out and put him in a 10 gallon on day 1. Shortly after 3 days) I put 3 stripe in 10g he came down with ich but he's alone. And he showed no signs of ich in 46 gallon for the 3 hours he was in there before I took him out due to his aggression.

Please any help would be great. I also would like to know if it's ich how to treat without removing dottyback from tank with corals and inverts. It would be a pain to do so removing things and all.

Thanks and I hope to get some solid advice

 

[wontonflip]

Hi

Down to business....for starters, you are way over your stock limit...your description says a 37g that will be upgraded to a 75g....i hope that will happen soon?

It does sound like ich, and looks like it's a combination of overcrowding, stocking the tank too much too fast, and maybe someone's picking on him, causing him to break out. That's just from initial observation.

Please post all your water parameters, but I really suggest you remove some of those fish. But as long as your dottyback is eating, there's no point treating him unless you plan to treat ALL the fish at the same time in a qt...otherwise, you treat your dottyback, and it gets ich again as soon as you put it back in your tank. Your tank will have to be fallow (fishless) for 6-8 weeks to truly kill ich.

 

[little_fish]

+1 Wonton

 

[InsideEdge33]

Well the tank is actually a 46 gallon. I thought it was a 37 because it was 36 inches long but turns out it's a 46 gallon tank. And 2nd all those fish were added no more than 2 at a time with at least a week in between adding new fish to the tank. Also they are are 4 inches and under. The clowns are the biggest everything else is 3 inches and under. And as far ad my water parameters everything was good except my nitrates that are a little high. I plan on doing a water change tomorrow to correct it. And the dottyback is swimming fine and eating also. I did catch him rubbing on the rocks though. Thanks for the input and any comments on this post?

I added dottyback first with the clowns. Then a week and added green clown goby and watchman goby. Then about a month later I added 2 pajama cardinals and another green clown goby from a 10 gallon I had running. Then a week later I added 2 blue/yellow damsels and a 3-striped damsel. 3-stripe was removed after 3 hours due to aggression towards other fish. So is that really too overstocked? 9 fish in a 46 gallon tank.

 

[Dakwan]

you should really have no more than 5 fish...6 would be pushing it imo

 

[Sir Alex]

Yes 9 fish in a 46 is too much. You should have a max of 6 fish. I would suggest taking the damsels out and maybe more.

And when you say you're nitrate were high, how high do you mean?

 

[Marines_Wife]

Well the tank is actually a 46 gallon. I thought it was a 37 because it was 36 inches long but turns out it's a 46 gallon tank. And 2nd all those fish were added no more than 2 at a time with at least a week in between adding new fish to the tank. Also they are are 4 inches and under. The clowns are the biggest everything else is 3 inches and under. And as far ad my water parameters everything was good except my nitrates that are a little high. I plan on doing a water change tomorrow to correct it. And the dottyback is swimming fine and eating also. I did catch him rubbing on the rocks though. Thanks for the input and any comments on this post?

Stocking limit aside, how do you know your tank was ready for a new fish let alone two? I would honestly say that if you havent tested in between to see what your water parameters were at and everyone was adjusted to the tank then you may have added them to fast. Stress can be something that causes ich, and if you were adding to much to quick, or despite the size of the fish, are over your stocking limit it can cause ich. Your at ten fish...enough to fill two tanks your size so I would say stress could do it

I added dottyback first with the clowns. Then a week and added green clown goby and watchman goby. Then about a month later I added 2 pajama cardinals and another green clown goby from a 10 gallon I had running. Then a week later I added 2 blue/yellow damsels and a 3-striped damsel. 3-stripe was removed after 3 hours due to aggression towards other fish. So is that really too overstocked? 9 fish in a 46 gallon tank.

The rule is 1 fish for every 10 gallons...so yeah a bit over stocked. The damsels should go honestly. They are mean and will beat up on your other fish.

 

[InsideEdge33]

1 fish every 10 gallons? I swear everyone had their own opinions ANSI can never get a true answer. The only thing everyone agrees on is I'm overstocked. But I read the saltwater for dummies and did a lot of research before setting up the tank and all the actual experts said 1 fish every 4 gallons for saltwater. And my local saltwater store guy told me I was ok with the fish. And I only bought 1 of the 9 from him so I know hrs not trying to get my money.
As far as water parameters the tank was running for a month empty and I have a water test kit and everything was good to go. Good news though is I saw my cleaner shrimp cleaning the dottyback last night so hopefully that will take care of the problem.

And I do appreciate everyones advise but it's something different from every person. Do this, do that. If I listened to everyone my fish would prolly be dead by now

 

[wontonflip]

Back on topic with the ich, unless you will take out ALL the fish to treat them and leave the tank empty for 6-8 weeks, you will continue to have ich. If they are eating, then they should fight it on their own.

Obviously one of the other fish are picking on your dottyback (hence the torn fins) or at the lest, he's scratching violently against the rocks. Which leads back to our comment on you being overstocked...it has a lot to do with your sick fish....I did not just throw it out there to nitpick. I put it out there because it is not making things better.

And also, one week is not enough time in between fish. I usually wait at least 3 months before adding more fish (my desire to make my fish comfortable and healthy outweighs my impatience to stock my tank), some wait maybe a month, but one week? That's too little. The reason being is that adding new fish adds to the bioload, so your tank compensates by pulling in more nitrifying bacteria to break down the extra ammonia. You need to give your tank more time to get those bacteria in, otherwise, you risk an ammonia spike.

 

[little_fish]

+1 Wonton

At a minimum you should wait 3 weeks between new additions. Also Saltwater for dummies is a pretty poor research book

Here is a list of books that are far better:
https://www.livingreefs.com/ideal-books-reef-keepers-t19535.html

 

[InsideEdge33]

My ammonia has remained at zero since I added my 1st fish. My nitrates were a little high but since a water change they are fine. I think people are just a little too cautious about it. 3 months between fish? That's a little nuts to me. No matter when u add a fish the bio load will increase no matter what. And once again according to experts from books I read a week or 2 is sufficient enough. And u also have to understand most of my fish are tank raised so they aren't coming straight from the wild. And as far as the dottyback being picked on the damsel may be doing it but everyone seems to be getting along well for the most part. I really don't know what else to say. Here u are telling me wait 3 months before I put a new fish in but with a new tank you cycle for a month then you can add 1-2 fish ci would think an established tank would be able to handle the bio load of 1-2 fish weekly. And honestly I have not had a single problem with any of my fish as car as acclimation or adjusting to my water tests. And just to be clear the clowns and the dottyback I got from a friend so they have been in s tank for over 4 years. The pajama cardinals and 1 green clown goby I added after they were in a 10 gallon for at least 2 months at my house. So the only fish I added straight from a store was the damsels and watchman goby and my corals.
But no way do I plan on removing all fish from the tank and leave it for 6-8 weeks. I'll self treat and pray for the best and I will also remove 1 of the blue/yellow damsels.

Thanks

 

[wontonflip]

3 months between fish?

I usually wait at least 3 months before adding more fish (my desire to make my fish comfortable and healthy outweighs my impatience to stock my tank), some wait maybe a month,

As I said, that was MY personal preference; most wait 3-4 weeks. I am on the overly cautious side of things because I don't want to waste money or fish lives.

You asked for advice, and we all posted tips & suggestions of what has worked for us. Yes, there are many differing opinions in this hobby. We all have trial and error, and have found what works best for us.

And honestly I have not had a single problem with any of my fish as car as acclimation or adjusting to my water tests.

But no way do I plan on removing all fish from the tank and leave it for 6-8 weeks. I'll self treat and pray for the best and I will also remove 1 of the blue/yellow damsels.

Thanks

Remind me again why you posted for help? And I did suggest you leave the fish alone and if they are eating, they will recover on their own. Most of us have ich in our tanks, but we try to keep our tank and parameters as hospitable as possible so they will not show signs. Most of us do not treat for ich.

 

[InsideEdge33]

I agree but people are stating their opinions like it's fact. And I do appreciate the feedback and I will be removing the damsel soon. He isn't too aggressive but I have seem him nip at some fish and he's a pig so I'll remove him and see how it goes. Thanks again for all the feedback.

 

[wontonflip]

LOL I remember in English class back in high school our teacher would say "Good writers avoid starting a phrase with "in my opinion" because since it's coming from you, it's clear it's your opinion. If it's a fact, you have to state your sources" This forum has a plethora of information based of peoples' own experiences.

Which, incidentally, includes damsels generally being aholes LOL If you were to get rid of a fish in your tank, they're the best first choice.

 

[little_fish]

Almost nothing in this hobby is based on fact, no one has the resources to perform experiments or the technical expertise to publish a paper on what they observe. Even those books you are so highly touting are nothing but a collection of experiences that worked for that particular author.

Our opinions are based on our collective experience and the experience of the reefer who went before us and discovered through trail and error what worked for them and what didnt.

My personal experience reading hundreds of posts has shown that small tanks that are quickly overstocked end up with disease issues and algae issues, so my opinion is that your current tank set up isnt ideal and we gave you suggestion on how to improve them.

The only fact i can think of and can prove in this hobby is that the only two methods of killing ich are copper and hypo. But i only have opinions on how long you should leave your tank fallow for.

 

[InsideEdge33]

So is there anyway my cleaner shrimp will clean the dottyback like I saw last night and it will be gone? And all the aquarium places I visit their so called experts have all told me my fish count for my tank size is ok and I didn't stock it too fast. I want to do things right and that's why I got books, read articles and asked a bunch of questions to my local saltwater guy. And I've asked at least 3 store owners who have at least 25 years experience each and they all said I was doing it the right way and then I come on here and everyone says I'm overstocked and filled tank too quickly. That's where I get confused. That's all

 

[little_fish]

The cleaner shrimp will only remove the visible ich mounds. It will do nothing about the other 3 life stages of ich, which means you will still have ich in your tank and it can come back in the visible phase.

Normally a fish's immune system is strong enough to keep the visible stage in check and you dont have to worry. You see the visible ich when the fish's immune system is compromised in some way, normally from stress. Most common cause of stress is overstocking.

And your other guys obviously have other opinions, but your fish has ich and you are asking us why do you have ich and we are telling you why we think you have ich. Im really confused as to why if you like their opinions so much more than ours, they why didnt you ask them for advice about ich?

Also you can overstock a tank to a point, but it requires some amount of planning and it shouldnt happen over night. I have the same tank as you with 7 fish in it, all my fish are fat and healthy. Ive never had a problem with disease or algae (which i suspect you are about to have with your higher nitrate levels).

Here is my write up about ich, you might find it useful
https://www.livingreefs.com/oh-no-have-ich-do-do-t30950.html

 

[wontonflip]

+1 fish....most of us have ich present in our tank....but by trying to keep our parameters pristine and keeping the tank as stress free as possible keeps the ich at bay. But if any of our fish get stressed, then we would see the white spots as well.

The only way to NOT have ich is if you QT all fish w hypo or copper BEFORE putting them in your tank. I believe Ohnonemo pulled all his fish out, treated them, left his dt fallow, and should no longer have ich in his tank, no matter how stressed his fish get. Ich is a parasite that attacks when the fish's immune system is down. Like humans...when you're super stressed, you'll be more susceptible to illnesses.

But like I said before, anytime you don't qt, you run a higher risk of introducing ich to your tank.

And I just want to point out something to you:

store owners

They have monetary motivation -- they let you go on doing this, fish die, you go back, buy more fish. We in this forum have no motivation except wanting to share our experiences. We base our advice on our own personal experiences. We have nothing to gain.

I go to an AWESOME lfs. I know most of the empoyees, I chat with them for hours about fish stuff. They have given me spot on advice in tune with what this place says....but at the end of the day, they have to make money. So I take their expert advice, combine it with my experiences, and find a way to make my tank work. At the end of the day, you have to choose who's advice you want to follow. But don't fault us for wanting to share our trials and errors.

 

[Marines_Wife]

I think you are misunderstanding the point to the forum, like I did when I first joined. You are excited about your tank and all of the possibilities it has in it. However you have to understand that when you come to a forum where there are people such as Little Fish and Wonton, and a great many others here that have a much more detailed working knowledge on the subject of reef keeping than a few simple books, and you present a problem, you may not like the answer. Thats the nature of the beast. We are all free to put what we would like in our tanks, and I am sure that most people here would admit to irresponsible reef keeping from time to time either because they didn't know better or simply because excitement overcame them. I personally know of a few reefers here, and among other forums that do things that are far more controversial then your stocking list, but they accept the consequences that may come with those actions.

The point to this however, is your issue is neither new or uncommon. You are not the first, and surely not the last person to come here with this problem, or many others like it. 1+1=2 here. Overstocking+Stress=Ich/death. Thats very simply put. Its not to rain on your parade or make you feel like we are trying to pick on you. The research is out there and what has been told to you comes from a lot of research and experience. You would do well to heed the advice of the people here and have healthy fish with little to no problems then not.

Also, many people dont just look at our fish as simply "fish". I know I dont. I would be devestated if I lost a single one of my fish. I love them like some people love their cats or their dogs or their snakes. I personally dont like the "see what happens" attitude because these are living creatures. BEAUTIFUL living creatures who are not in their natural habitat because we cant help but be a little bit selfish and have them in our home. To loose a single one of them because you want to test the theories of "Saltwater for Dummies" against the advice being given here is unfair IMO. Accidents happen and fish will die, but sometimes we can do things to prevent it and your fishes situation is just about 100% preventable.....