Fuge vs scrubber
- Thread starter Variko
- Start date
sen5241b
Reef enthusiast
- Location
- Arlington VA
I haven't run both but I have hard time believing scrubbers are worth the extra trouble.
The main purpose to dose organic carbon is the reduction of excess nutrients in the reef aquaria. The two main nutrients reduced from organic carbon addition are nitrate and phosphate molecules (NO3 and PO4 respectfully). The reduction of phosphates, in turn, allows for enhanced calcification and growth of corals. Additionally, lower NO3 and PO4 have the added benefit of reduced nuisance algae, both bubble and hair. This observation has been reported numerous times by vodka users. The reduction in algae is the result of lower NO3 and PO4 within the water column and not a direct effect of ethanol addition. These potential benefits have lead some to add foreign organic carbon sources not usually found in the reef ecosystem to their tank. The organic compound most frequently used is ethanol (sold in stores as vodka).
The addition of vodka/ethanol is thought to increase bacterial biomass. For this, vodka addition would result in bacterial growth and reproduction. During this process nutrients in the water (including NO3 and PO4) are taken up for the formation of new macromolecules that are needed in cell synthesis and viability. Due to this rapid growth and reproduction, NO3 and PO4 can drop quickly from detectable levels by most test kits on the market. The increased biomass of the bacteria leads to a notable increase in skimmate production, removing more waste than without vodka addition. The increased skimmate is thought to remove the bacteria or bacterial biproducts that have assimilated the NO3 and PO4 within the water column leading to NO3 and PO4 depletion.
Many view organic carbon dosing as unnecessary as organic carbon isn�t thought to be limited in the reef aquarium environment since larger organic molecules are found within the water column at any given time. However, the amount of organic carbon that heterotrophic bacteria can utilize must be limited due to the reported benefits and observations on Reef Central from organic carbon dosing. This method is applicable for systems that have had the inability to effectively remove both NO3 and PO4 from their system. Stable systems that do not contain high levels of NO3 and PO4 may not benefit to any great extent by employing carbon source dosing.
Equipment - Skimmer, An Absolute Must!
Well if it sounds so great, why can�t I just start dumping vodka/organic carbon into my system? Before running to the liquor cabinet, the simple answer is overdosing can cause serious and detrimental effects to the reef system. To help circumvent this potential issue a dosing regimen along with some basic equipment is needed. The absolute must is the requirement for a powerful skimmer. People that have reported beneficial results using this method all have had strong skimmer and report a change in skimmate from a light brown to a strong odiferous black sludge. This makes a good skimmer a key requirement and important for two reasons:
Gelbstoff, German for yellow matter, is reported to buildup in aquariums over time. Additions of vodka or other carbon sources have the potential to accelerate the yellowish water buildup from organics. To solve this problem, people have utilized ozonators to breakdown of the organic molecules responsible for resulting in yellowish water. Ozone is an attractive choice as it would not only breakdown the gelbstoff but will also add O2 to the water in case of an overdose. For people not interested in running ozone other solutions for this problem are the addition of granulated activated carbon or through regular water changes.
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Pictured above is miwoodar's tank. This aquarium successfully used vodka to lower nitrates and phosphates. His setup utilizes a skimmer but does not utilize ozone. After reduction, continued growth and coloration was observed amongst SPS and LPS corals.
Dosing Instructions
These instructions will focus solely on using 80 proof vodka (40% ethanol by volume). They do not pertain to other organic carbon sources that are also currently used, including common table sugar (sucrose) and vinegar (sodium acetate). The dosing instructions below were as dictated by J�rg Kokott and have been used successfully by us.
For ease of use these tables have been generated to reflect a dosing schedule regimen for different common proofs of vodka. They follow the directions stated above and are rounded off to the nearest tenth decimal for simplicity. With use of these tables if you notice NO3 / PO4 dropping do not increase as stated within the table for the following weeks but follow the directions above starting at #6.
Common Questions
Bacterial Blooms - High additions of carbon sources at once are noted as production of slimy white strings upon rocks or in sumps that become noticeable a few hours to a day after addition. There is no clear evidence that this is detrimental to your tank. If this is observed dropping your dose by 50% will result in the disappearance of these strands. Additionally, these strands may have given rise to the notion of "bad bacteria". By this forum users mean pathogenic bacteria. But there has not been any documented evidence of such yet. If you happen to overdose your tank with an organic carbon dose, you will stimulate a bacteria bloom, this appears like a snowstorm in your tank. After a day, the tank will clear up. During this time people have reported mixed results on survival from this snowstorm. Stony_Coral has purposefully caused this on one tank and while ORP readings dropped, no loss of livestock was observed. However, people have mentioned loss of more delicate fish such as anthias during the visualized bloom. In general, a visible bloom will not occur if vodka is dosed as per the instructions above.
Bacterial Populations - Currently, it is unknown which bacterial populations grow with the addition of organic carbon. Some have suggested a single organic carbon source, such as vodka, results in monoculture or single specie growth. Due to this ideology, it has been increasingly common to dose multiple carbon sources as this may create additional bacterial diversity. Most likely, in any one organic carbon source addition there are several species that become dominant. However, it has not been decided whether diversifying impacts corals either beneficially or negatively.
Burnt tips - Some users of organic carbon dosing have reported the tissue loss at the ends of their SPS. These "burnt tips" have recovered once the user reduced the alkalinity levels within their tank to alkalinity levels closer to natural seawater (7-8 dKH), pictured below. Unfortunately, the root cause for this is not known.
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Carbon Sources - Reduction in nitrates and phosphates can be accomplished with ethanol and vinegar with great efficiency. Other molecules that may aid in nutrient reduction are sugar, acetone, methanol, and isopropanol. We have not experimented with sugar though there are many threads on RC about this topic. The latter three have been called into question about the possible effects on health of the owner as well as the wellbeing of the aquarium inhabitants. For these reasons, we chose to describe ethanol addition as a means to decrease both nitrates and phosphate levels.
Coral Coloration / Paleness - With reduction of nitrates/phosphates SPS corals have been reported to increase in color pigmentation and have even been reported to pale over time. This is outside the scope of the article presented here. However, if looking for recommendations for additives that will reduce paleness and enhance SPS health check out amino acid addition as this has been reported to enhance coloration in a ULN (ultra-low nutrient) environment. If for any reason you experience coral bleaching, please stop vodka dosing!
Deep Sand Beds - People with Deep Sand Beds (DSBs) have reported issues with vodka dosing. These issues seem to be from increasing vodka additions over time without seeing a decrease in nitrate/phosphate levels. Users with DSBs that are failing to reduce nutrients efficiently may be experiencing a lack of nutrient decrease from the build up of organics within the DSB. If this were the case it would take more time to cycle out the nitrates within the system as there is now a hidden bed of organic waste that needs to be removed. Do not get discouraged or increase your dose irrationally as the vodka addition is working but not detectable as the DSB needs to cycle through completely before a reduction is observed. Keep adding vodka slowly until decreasing levels are detected. This may take months to achieve. Once there maintain that dose until nitrates start to decrease. At this point, it may be best to cut the dose in half and cut it in half again once undetectable is reached. Many people with DSBs who have reported issues increase vodka additions quickly and irrationally, leading to a detrimental overdose.
Feeding - A derivative of vodka dosing is the ability to increase feeding for fish or invertebrates without reducing water quality. Since the vodka is essentially removing the waste products (nitrates/phosphates) from the reef aquarium, addition of extra food is welcomed if not encouraged.
Old Tank Syndrome - Reef systems that have been running for longer than a year have reported vodka-dosing building up a thick sludge within some area of their reef. The thought is the buildup of organics and NO3/PO4 over time results in a high growth of bacteria from the addition of vodka. In tanks that are older, where detritus has built up, careful observation of the tanks state is needed. If thick sludge develops within the tank immediately reduce the dose by 50% and continue at that point until the sludge has disappeared and then slowly increase as per instructions laid out above.
Phosphate Removal / Granulated Ferric Oxide (GFO) - One of the most common questions is whether to use a phosphate removal material, such as GFO, with carbon dosing. GFO is useful in removal of phosphates from the water column. Essentially, by carbon source additions, the same net result is being achieved. It may even be counterproductive to run GFO while dosing an organic carbon source as both nitrate and phosphates need to be present for this to work properly. Therefore, it is not needed and not commonly recommended but some people continue to run phosphate reactors concurrently.
Water Clarity - Even without the use of either ozone or activated carbon, water clarity is said to improve dramatically with the vodka method. This has been stated by nearly everyone using this method and may be an indirect result of nitrate/phosphate removal from the water column. Dr. Jean Jaubert made similar claims of his plenum system, where nitrates and phosphates are also depleted and water clarity may be a result of this depletion.
Vodka Brand - One of the most common questions is which brand is the best. Honestly, it will make little difference on which brand is used. The most common response is to find the cheapest vodka brand and go with that. Do not use vodka that contains flavor additives such as raspberry or mango vodka. Additionally, industrial ethanol should not be used as a substitute as it contains denaturing agents that are toxic.
Summary
Vodka dosing has become a simple method for reduction of nitrates and phosphates that have plagued many reef aquarists. Here we have described a method for reduction of these nutrients by stimulation and promotion of bacterial growth through the addition of vodka. Though the underlying mechanism and actual bacteria populations are unknown the results are impressive for their ability to both rid the system of excess nitrates and phosphates
The addition of vodka/ethanol is thought to increase bacterial biomass. For this, vodka addition would result in bacterial growth and reproduction. During this process nutrients in the water (including NO3 and PO4) are taken up for the formation of new macromolecules that are needed in cell synthesis and viability. Due to this rapid growth and reproduction, NO3 and PO4 can drop quickly from detectable levels by most test kits on the market. The increased biomass of the bacteria leads to a notable increase in skimmate production, removing more waste than without vodka addition. The increased skimmate is thought to remove the bacteria or bacterial biproducts that have assimilated the NO3 and PO4 within the water column leading to NO3 and PO4 depletion.
Many view organic carbon dosing as unnecessary as organic carbon isn�t thought to be limited in the reef aquarium environment since larger organic molecules are found within the water column at any given time. However, the amount of organic carbon that heterotrophic bacteria can utilize must be limited due to the reported benefits and observations on Reef Central from organic carbon dosing. This method is applicable for systems that have had the inability to effectively remove both NO3 and PO4 from their system. Stable systems that do not contain high levels of NO3 and PO4 may not benefit to any great extent by employing carbon source dosing.
Equipment - Skimmer, An Absolute Must!
Well if it sounds so great, why can�t I just start dumping vodka/organic carbon into my system? Before running to the liquor cabinet, the simple answer is overdosing can cause serious and detrimental effects to the reef system. To help circumvent this potential issue a dosing regimen along with some basic equipment is needed. The absolute must is the requirement for a powerful skimmer. People that have reported beneficial results using this method all have had strong skimmer and report a change in skimmate from a light brown to a strong odiferous black sludge. This makes a good skimmer a key requirement and important for two reasons:
- Gas exchange. The increased bacterial biomass and growth will decrease your dissolved O2 levels in the water column. Too much vodka can result in a drastic decrease of O2 and can cause stress to your reef inhabitants, if not death.
- Exporting bacteria/macromolecule mass. Vodka addition results in lower NO3 and PO4 levels. You will want to export the incorporated nitrogen and phosphates that you are cultivating by organic carbon dosing. Efficient skimming allows such removal.
Gelbstoff, German for yellow matter, is reported to buildup in aquariums over time. Additions of vodka or other carbon sources have the potential to accelerate the yellowish water buildup from organics. To solve this problem, people have utilized ozonators to breakdown of the organic molecules responsible for resulting in yellowish water. Ozone is an attractive choice as it would not only breakdown the gelbstoff but will also add O2 to the water in case of an overdose. For people not interested in running ozone other solutions for this problem are the addition of granulated activated carbon or through regular water changes.
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Left photos are pre-dosing of vodka.
Right photos are post-dosing.
Photos courtesy of Mike Woodard (miwoodar).
Pictured above is miwoodar's tank. This aquarium successfully used vodka to lower nitrates and phosphates. His setup utilizes a skimmer but does not utilize ozone. After reduction, continued growth and coloration was observed amongst SPS and LPS corals.
Dosing Instructions
These instructions will focus solely on using 80 proof vodka (40% ethanol by volume). They do not pertain to other organic carbon sources that are also currently used, including common table sugar (sucrose) and vinegar (sodium acetate). The dosing instructions below were as dictated by J�rg Kokott and have been used successfully by us.
- Test your system�s NO3 and PO4 levels. Do not dose if you do not know this! We recommend good test kits that have some low level of sensitivity. This will be important later on to determining a maintenance dose regimen. During the initial dosing test often and adjust dosing parameters as needed as each tank�s requirement will be different. Dosing accuracy is of the utmost importance. A graduated measurement tool such as a syringe will come in handy. A journal of additions and test kit measurements is recommended.
- Estimate your Net Water Volume (NWV) of your system. (Aquarium volume + sump + refugium + reactor volumes) � (live rock displacement). It can be difficult to accurately measure the amount of water being displaced by the live rock. If unsure of the volume of live rock we suggest taking 30% off your display tank�s Gross Water Volume. For vodka dosing there is absolutely no harm in underestimating the Net Water Volume and is recommended.
- The starting dosage is 0.1ml of vodka per 25 gallons (~100 liters) NWV daily continued for three days. For 100 Net Gallons, your dosage would be 0.4ml daily during this period. It has been suggested to cut the daily dosage in half and dose twice daily for more consistency.
- Days 4-7, double the daily dosage to 0.2ml of vodka per 25 gallons NWV. Your example dosage would be 0.8ml daily during this period.
- Each subsequent week add an additional 0.5ml of vodka regardless of aquaria volume. At this point your example dosage during week two would be 1.3ml daily. If you do not see nutrient levels decrease during this week, the following week add an additional 0.5ml for a daily dosage of 1.8ml daily.
- When your NO3 and PO4 levels start to drop maintain the current dose. For example, if you were on week two when NO3 start to fall on 100 Net Water Volume you would add 1.3mL daily at this time for the continuing weeks until the NO3 becomes undetectable.
- When your NO3 and PO4 levels drop near undetectable with your test kits cut your current dose in half. This will be your starting maintenance dose (if the levels drop during week 2 then the dose after reaching undetectable levels would be 0.65ml daily [1.3ml divide by 2]).
- Continue to test for NO3 and PO4. If levels become detectable in the future increase your daily dose by 0.1ml increments per week until the levels start to decrease. If you maintain that dose the levels will eventually drop back to undetectable. This would become your new maintenance dose.
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Table 1. 40 Proof Vodka
Table 1. 40 Proof Vodka
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Table 2. 80 Proof Vodka
Table 2. 80 Proof Vodka
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Table 3. 100 Proof Vodka
Table 3. 100 Proof Vodka
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Table 4. 160 Proof Vodka
Table 4. 160 Proof Vodka
For ease of use these tables have been generated to reflect a dosing schedule regimen for different common proofs of vodka. They follow the directions stated above and are rounded off to the nearest tenth decimal for simplicity. With use of these tables if you notice NO3 / PO4 dropping do not increase as stated within the table for the following weeks but follow the directions above starting at #6.
Common Questions
Bacterial Blooms - High additions of carbon sources at once are noted as production of slimy white strings upon rocks or in sumps that become noticeable a few hours to a day after addition. There is no clear evidence that this is detrimental to your tank. If this is observed dropping your dose by 50% will result in the disappearance of these strands. Additionally, these strands may have given rise to the notion of "bad bacteria". By this forum users mean pathogenic bacteria. But there has not been any documented evidence of such yet. If you happen to overdose your tank with an organic carbon dose, you will stimulate a bacteria bloom, this appears like a snowstorm in your tank. After a day, the tank will clear up. During this time people have reported mixed results on survival from this snowstorm. Stony_Coral has purposefully caused this on one tank and while ORP readings dropped, no loss of livestock was observed. However, people have mentioned loss of more delicate fish such as anthias during the visualized bloom. In general, a visible bloom will not occur if vodka is dosed as per the instructions above.
Bacterial Populations - Currently, it is unknown which bacterial populations grow with the addition of organic carbon. Some have suggested a single organic carbon source, such as vodka, results in monoculture or single specie growth. Due to this ideology, it has been increasingly common to dose multiple carbon sources as this may create additional bacterial diversity. Most likely, in any one organic carbon source addition there are several species that become dominant. However, it has not been decided whether diversifying impacts corals either beneficially or negatively.
Burnt tips - Some users of organic carbon dosing have reported the tissue loss at the ends of their SPS. These "burnt tips" have recovered once the user reduced the alkalinity levels within their tank to alkalinity levels closer to natural seawater (7-8 dKH), pictured below. Unfortunately, the root cause for this is not known.
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Loss of tissue at tip ends with high Alkalinity.
Restoration of SPS tissue color and growth.
Photos provided by Peter Martis (SDguy).
Carbon Sources - Reduction in nitrates and phosphates can be accomplished with ethanol and vinegar with great efficiency. Other molecules that may aid in nutrient reduction are sugar, acetone, methanol, and isopropanol. We have not experimented with sugar though there are many threads on RC about this topic. The latter three have been called into question about the possible effects on health of the owner as well as the wellbeing of the aquarium inhabitants. For these reasons, we chose to describe ethanol addition as a means to decrease both nitrates and phosphate levels.
Coral Coloration / Paleness - With reduction of nitrates/phosphates SPS corals have been reported to increase in color pigmentation and have even been reported to pale over time. This is outside the scope of the article presented here. However, if looking for recommendations for additives that will reduce paleness and enhance SPS health check out amino acid addition as this has been reported to enhance coloration in a ULN (ultra-low nutrient) environment. If for any reason you experience coral bleaching, please stop vodka dosing!
Deep Sand Beds - People with Deep Sand Beds (DSBs) have reported issues with vodka dosing. These issues seem to be from increasing vodka additions over time without seeing a decrease in nitrate/phosphate levels. Users with DSBs that are failing to reduce nutrients efficiently may be experiencing a lack of nutrient decrease from the build up of organics within the DSB. If this were the case it would take more time to cycle out the nitrates within the system as there is now a hidden bed of organic waste that needs to be removed. Do not get discouraged or increase your dose irrationally as the vodka addition is working but not detectable as the DSB needs to cycle through completely before a reduction is observed. Keep adding vodka slowly until decreasing levels are detected. This may take months to achieve. Once there maintain that dose until nitrates start to decrease. At this point, it may be best to cut the dose in half and cut it in half again once undetectable is reached. Many people with DSBs who have reported issues increase vodka additions quickly and irrationally, leading to a detrimental overdose.
Feeding - A derivative of vodka dosing is the ability to increase feeding for fish or invertebrates without reducing water quality. Since the vodka is essentially removing the waste products (nitrates/phosphates) from the reef aquarium, addition of extra food is welcomed if not encouraged.
Old Tank Syndrome - Reef systems that have been running for longer than a year have reported vodka-dosing building up a thick sludge within some area of their reef. The thought is the buildup of organics and NO3/PO4 over time results in a high growth of bacteria from the addition of vodka. In tanks that are older, where detritus has built up, careful observation of the tanks state is needed. If thick sludge develops within the tank immediately reduce the dose by 50% and continue at that point until the sludge has disappeared and then slowly increase as per instructions laid out above.
Phosphate Removal / Granulated Ferric Oxide (GFO) - One of the most common questions is whether to use a phosphate removal material, such as GFO, with carbon dosing. GFO is useful in removal of phosphates from the water column. Essentially, by carbon source additions, the same net result is being achieved. It may even be counterproductive to run GFO while dosing an organic carbon source as both nitrate and phosphates need to be present for this to work properly. Therefore, it is not needed and not commonly recommended but some people continue to run phosphate reactors concurrently.
Water Clarity - Even without the use of either ozone or activated carbon, water clarity is said to improve dramatically with the vodka method. This has been stated by nearly everyone using this method and may be an indirect result of nitrate/phosphate removal from the water column. Dr. Jean Jaubert made similar claims of his plenum system, where nitrates and phosphates are also depleted and water clarity may be a result of this depletion.
Vodka Brand - One of the most common questions is which brand is the best. Honestly, it will make little difference on which brand is used. The most common response is to find the cheapest vodka brand and go with that. Do not use vodka that contains flavor additives such as raspberry or mango vodka. Additionally, industrial ethanol should not be used as a substitute as it contains denaturing agents that are toxic.
Summary
Vodka dosing has become a simple method for reduction of nitrates and phosphates that have plagued many reef aquarists. Here we have described a method for reduction of these nutrients by stimulation and promotion of bacterial growth through the addition of vodka. Though the underlying mechanism and actual bacteria populations are unknown the results are impressive for their ability to both rid the system of excess nitrates and phosphates
So the vodka supercharges bacteria that feed on phosphates and nitrates, then they are skimmed out. How long have you been using this method? What type of fish and inverts have you used it with? I wonder how this was discovered? Did someone have their martini resting on the tank and it fell in? lol Very interesting method! Were you worried when you first tried this? Thanks for the info also!
Eddie
Eddie
RyanG
Reef enthusiast
- Location
- Cuba, New York
Fwiw a decent skimmer will out perform a plethora of fuges 9 out of 10 times.
What I have in my tank is in my signature. I also have a Torch, Frogspawn, Toadstool Leather, and some inverts. Before adding vodka 4 months ago, my trates were 200. As of last week they are 10. But, I went around the conventional way of adding it, I did not add it like it directs. If I did that it would have been 9 months before they started to come down. I had my dose as high as 40ml just to start and get them down. My current dose is 30ml a day, and I expect the Trates to be 0 by next week.
little_fish
Reef pro
- Location
- ABQ, NM
Considering i just looked through your build thread, you are not planning a lightly stocked tank. Your tank it sounds like is going to be seriously overstocked. You are going to need some extra good filtration and a lot of luck to pull that off. Also mangroves take months to get established and start pulling nitrates, they also need lots of room to grow. The people who keep mangroves successfully have them plumbed into a separate room and not under their tank.
The mangroves will not be under the tank. The 29 will be next to the display tank so the mangroves will have plenty of space and light. I started playing with the pvc in March and didnt finalize the design until May. I have cut and drilled the dead rock in every way possible, and put about 60 hours into it. Im 3 1/2 months into the build, have put a ton of time into it, and Im still atleast 9 months away from buying fish or invertebrate #1. I will have about 219 gallons of water minus the 200 lbs of rock. 2 maroons, 7 jawfish, a few barnacle blennies, 4 shrimp gobies, and a few dragonets in no way, in my opinion, is too big of a bioload for this set up. I would think a snowflake moray, a trigger, and a lionfish would be suitable in this size tank. I cant imagine these little guys producingas much waste as those would. At any rate, if my bioload is too high, Ill scrap the dragonets, do more water changes, add a skimmer or an algae scrubber, or add another tank to increase my water volume even more. This stocking level will be reached very very slowly. I want to see how far I can push a macro/mangrove filtered tank. If I am wrong no worries. An answer can be found. My turtle requires a ton of maintenance as he is more of a pig than any fish ever could be. The algae eaters keep his tank glass clear, the guppies and ghost shrimp eat his poop, and the bamboo filters his water a bit. The rest i make up with water changes. For his tank carbon is almost useless. Water changes are the only way to stay ahead of him.
little_fish
Reef pro
- Location
- ABQ, NM
Its not just a matter of bioload, its every fish being able to have his own space and not feel crammed. Crammed fish are stressed fish, and stressed fish are dead fish.
The 29 will have its own light whcih will be as good of a light as the DT. I am with you on the keeping of the Maroons in the 29. I havent decided on that one. I had hoped a mated pair would be ok in there, as I have mostly observed that they stay where the nem is and dont really use alot of the tank. If not, I throw em into the 55g until I come up with a new plan.
little_fish
Reef pro
- Location
- ABQ, NM
No, they will not stay grouped together in a bunch. And a 29 is really too small for a pair of maroons. Even a mated pair. I think you will find the female will end up beating the male to death.
little_fish
Reef pro
- Location
- ABQ, NM
If you want to solve this problem, you are going to need a bigger tank. Creative ideas will not change your fish's nature, it can only help you adapt to their nature.
