What Not To Do - Newbie Story (long)

[Bredfan]

Hi -

The folks here at LR helped me through a bad start up. My tank is now stabilized and I wanted to share some conclusions, because it might help others who are just starting. I have learned so much in the past 3 months - all the hard way.

Mistake number one was listening to the LFS. I was holding judgement on this store, but now I am convinced - it is a bad shop with bad people and I'll not go back. I didn't come to this conclusion lightly.

First - The Tank Set Up
The LFS sold me a 29g tank, with a Fluval 205 canister filter, along with live sand, a bag of salt, and about 10lbs of dry rock. They gave me instructions on mixing my water.

RIght off the bat, they steered me wrong. I've sought advice at every aquarium store within 30 miles of my home - there are about 5 - in addition to the various forums including this one. Virtually EVERYone says the same thing: A canister filter is really better suited for fresh water.

So, why would they sell me a canister? The only reason I can tell is so that they can sell me new charcoal and media every month. (I've earned the right to be so cynical...read on...)

They also told me that tap water would be fine. It is NOT fine.

The First Fish
A few days after I set up the tank and filled it with water, I went back to the same LFS to report that I had followed directions and to take next steps. Keep in mind - I was a total noob and had no other advice but for theirs. They sold me two clown fish and a damsel - this to cycle the tank.

At the time, I had no idea there was any other way to cycle a tank - I had assumed that the small local fish store that had been in business for 13 years was on the up and up.

On day 13, one clown died, on day 14, the second clown died.

I thought the Damsel killed the clowns, so I removed him. I took him back to the (same) LFS.

They surmised that the Damsel killed the Clowns, and they sold me a second pair of clown fish.

The second pair made it 3 days.

The guy at the LFS said he had no idea why they would have died - he actually chalked it up to bad luck.

He tried to sell me ANOTHER set of clown fish. I wouldn't do it, so I bought a couple snails and a few hermits crabs.

Getting Good Advice
About this time, I started looking into online forums and found this site. My BS meter started going off as I learned more and more.

After a few more weeks, I decided to go back to the same LFS and get a SINGLE clown fish. I was so gun shy about getting a pair, because the LFS had me convinced that the first two were killed by the Damsel and the second two killed each other. I assumed they were right. They never ventured, and I never considered, that the water was never right.

I got a single Clown and he did okay. This is about 3 months or so into this. He did fine for a few days, and after consulting with the folks here, I decided to try and pair him on day 3.

I added Fish #6 from a NEW fish store.

2 days after I added #6, #5 died.

Fish #6 lived - he made it. #6 was significantly smaller than #5, on the advice I got here and advice repeated by the NEW LFS.

So Fish #6 lived about 2 weeks and then I found ANOTHER new LFS - LFS #3. This one was different. This was the first LFS to tell me: "Don't buy anything!" I really appreciated that.

When the new store told me NOT to buy anything until the tank stabilized, I felt I could trust them. I told them the story. Here is what they told me:

1) If you start your tank with tap water, you're asking for trouble.
2) A canister filter is not a good choice for salt water
3) The test strips the first LFS sold me are garbage
4) I should have started the tank with live rock
5) I should NOT have cycled the tank with live fish
6) The first LFS should NOT have sold me additional fish after the first two died.
7) The tank probably never cycled properly/completely

The NEWEST LFS (#3) did encourage me to get some additional live rock for the tank and 10 more blue leg hermit crabs. I did that - I added 8lbs of live rock - 24 hours later, after 2 weeks in the tank, Clown #6 died.

Here's the thing… the LFS #3 told me that if the tank was unstable, the new rock COULD spike ammonia. We had a long talk about it and I decided to give it a try.

Unfortunately, it did spike the levels and #6 just couldn't handle it. I suspect that he was probably hurt by the unstable water to begin with, so a small spike from the new rock was enough to kill him.

Patience, Patience, Patience
Since #6 died a couple weeks ago, I have left the tank alone. I got a very good test kit and I'm testing the water every day. I'm doing weekly 4g water changes with RO water - premixed at 1.023 salt.

My tank is now testing with the following parameters:

Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - .3 (just a hair darker than .2, but not as dark as .5)
ph - 8.2ish
temp - 80 (seems to drop by about 1-2 degrees at night when it gets cold in the house)

My 2 turbos and 15 hermits seem to be thriving, and I've spotted some interesting new life in the tank.

My plan now is to keep up with the testing and water changes for another 3-5 weeks. I'm going to buy a protein skimmer and power head (what I should have had to begin with). I'll let the new equipment run for 3-4 weeks while continuing to test.

If I switch to the protein skimmer and power head, and keep the chemistry stable for a few weeks, THEN I will try again with some fish.

Until then… what a learning experience. My only question is whether or not to "out" the LFS. I really hold them responsible for this. I feel taken advantage of.

Sorry for the long post…I was inspired to share… :-)

 

[little_fish]

holy cow, that is pretty rough, but im glad we have got you sorted out!

Another thing to think about over the next few weeks is how to stabilize the temp, that is getting to be a pretty big swing for our tanks. I would either turn up your heater so it stays warmer at night or cool it a bit in the day by blowing a fan on it.

 

[Bredfan]

Would adding a second heater, or getting a bigger one be a good choice?

All I've been through, I don't want something that simple to throw me off!

 

[little_fish]

Its always a good idea to have a second heater, they break more than anything else in this hobby.

 

[NanoReefer]

you want to run your powerhead and skimmer at all times, it wouldnt be good to cycle between the two,,,

 

[sen5241b]

You had a rough start but hang in there we will help you. I think I know what LFS it is, in Annandale?

Secondly, the canister filter will not go completely to waste. In an emergency situation they can be hooked up and run for 24 to 48 hours with some media that will absorb toxins like ammonia, nitrites or copper. Running them continuously with salt tanks is not good because they become detritus traps and no one wants to clean the thing out completely every 3 days. GOOD ADVICE: read this article about tank disasters and prevent anything else form going wrong

https://www.livingreefs.com/marine-aquarium-disasters-and-prevent-them-t20514.html

 

[Northstar24]

As far as outing your first LFS, I'd look around to see if your area has a local reefing group, my guess is your bad experience was not the first and others have already commented about it.

I have two fish stores that are literally right down the street from me, but I don't buy anything from them anymore, they are way overpriced, and have given plenty of bad advice. I now drive about a half hour and visit a place downtown because the owner cares about his customers tanks and what they put in them.

Remember to support the stores that help you out. While many things can be found cheaper online - its your good fish store that you'll need when that emergency happens

 

[Old_Moe]

Thank you for sharing ( Just getting started myself )

Sorry to hear about the fish ( my LFS told me the same thing, just fill the tank and drop in a "Bunch" of Damsels )

really drives home the idea of Research, Information, Patience (RIP)


Big thanks to everyone on this board for sharing their experiences.

 

[sen5241b]

I think I know what LFS is was and they are F$#*ng sh^%heads. Bredfan bought half a dozen fish from this LFS and has now decided he will never buy anything from them again. My favorite LFS, Marine Scene in Herndon always has given me warnings on what might not work out in my tank. I've been going there for over two years and I have easily spent well over a thousand dollars there if not two.

The only result of BS'ing customers is they stop coming back and in the long run you lose a huge amount of business. It never ceases to amaze at how many businesses out there have no idea what they are doing.

 

[Toolman]

WOW Sounds like you ran the full range of emoitions. My only suggestion and always give other people a chance to weigh in the addition of a power herad and skimmer could raise water temps so I would continue to watch after you put them in before you made any further temp adjustments. :twocents:

 

[SarahSmile]

I'm glad you posted this as I'm sure many can learn from your experiences. Glad you are finally on track. Overall though, I think, at some point we have to relax with the LFS hatred and take some responsiblity ourselves. If I buy a golden retriever from a petstore and they tell me the dog will be fine in a 1 foot cage for it's whole life and I go ahead and do that, who's fault is it when the dog is sick and miserable?
A lot of us jump into saltwater and expect the people selling the fish and assorted crap to know what they are talking about and have perfect information about everything. I know I did at first. Can you run a saltwater tank with tap water and a canister filter and cycle it with a live fish? Yes. Is there a better way? Yes! Thank goodness for great forums that help us realize that advice from a store often needs to be taken with a grain of salt. But, I feel as though that is true with many different hobbies. Go to a specialty store for running shoes or cross country skiing or hunting and you'll get all kinds of different advice from workers there, a lot of it conflicting. Or go to a big box construction store and start asking around about how to best fix x y or z. Bad advice isn't always malicious, sometimes people just get an idea in their head of what works or what they have heard works and that is that. I'm sure we're all been steered wrong at other types of stores. Yeesh, if I ask the chick at Express if a dress makes my hips look wide, what do you think she's gonna tell me? Of course, it's not as sad or angering since it only involves me looking like a whale at a wedding and not killing livestock. But, I think when getting into any hobby or project, (especially involving living creatures), it's important to do research on your own and not just rely on Bobby Joe at Home Depot who tells you that his brother used spackle on his roof and it worked just fine. Maybe before covering your shingles in white gunk you should pop in to Lowe's and ask them. Maybe do a google search. Plus, even when people get great advice, i.e.; return the nem, don't add the tang, adding more rock is gonna raise your ammonia and kill your fish, people still don't always listen.
I'm glad you found this forum, I'd forget about the LFS and focus on being informed and enjoying your tank.

 

[sen5241b]

I'm glad you posted this as I'm sure many can learn from your experiences. Glad you are finally on track. Overall though, I think, at some point we have to relax with the LFS hatred and take some responsiblity ourselves. If I buy a golden retriever from a petstore and they tell me the dog will be fine in a 1 foot cage for it's whole life and I go ahead and do that, who's fault is it when the dog is sick and miserable?
A lot of us jump into saltwater and expect the people selling the fish and assorted crap to know what they are talking about and have perfect information about everything. I know I did at first. Can you run a saltwater tank with tap water and a canister filter and cycle it with a live fish? Yes. Is there a better way? Yes! Thank goodness for great forums that help us realize that advice from a store often needs to be taken with a grain of salt. But, I feel as though that is true with many different hobbies. Go to a specialty store for running shoes or cross country skiing or hunting and you'll get all kinds of different advice from workers there, a lot of it conflicting. Or go to a big box construction store and start asking around about how to best fix x y or z. Bad advice isn't always malicious, sometimes people just get an idea in their head of what works or what they have heard works and that is that. I'm sure we're all been steered wrong at other types of stores. Yeesh, if I ask the chick at Express if a dress makes my hips look wide, what do you think she's gonna tell me? Of course, it's not as sad or angering since it only involves me looking like a whale at a wedding and not killing livestock. But, I think when getting into any hobby or project, (especially involving living creatures), it's important to do research on your own and not just rely on Bobby Joe at Home Depot who tells you that his brother used spackle on his roof and it worked just fine. Maybe before covering your shingles in white gunk you should pop in to Lowe's and ask them. Maybe do a google search. Plus, even when people get great advice, i.e.; return the nem, don't add the tang, adding more rock is gonna raise your ammonia and kill your fish, people still don't always listen.
I'm glad you found this forum, I'd forget about the LFS and focus on being informed and enjoying your tank.

Yeah we need do do research for ourselves BUT there is never any excuse for a LFS to feed customers pure BS.

 

[SarahSmile]

Check out the "new anemone" thread in identification or, the "help-blue sided fairy wrasse" thread from yesterday in reef fishes. Whom do you think is at fault? You blame the LFS for selling these items to people who do not have the tanks to keep them happy? Or, the people who buy things that they do not research or even know what they are or how to care for them? At some point, we as consumers, consumers who are buying living creatures, must have some culpability and quit blaming the store. That's like that person who sued McDonald's for making them fat. Honey, it's not McDonald's fault and it's not Petco's.

 

[Northstar24]

Some self education is good, but you cant expect to go into this hobby knowing everything, and a fish store has a obligation to its customers as well as its livestock to prevent this type of situation. While many fish stores may see this as a short term money making situation, had they treated the customer right the first time they would likely have a long term customer that will be far more profitable for them in the long run than someone who buys a bunch of stuff, follows a stores malicious or mis-informed advice and two months later gets out of the hobby.

The other side of that coin is a hobbyists support for a good local fish store if they are lucky enough to have one. When I bought my first MP40, I went through my local fish store. Was it more expensive that buying it from an online vendor? Yes it was. Was it significantly more expensive? No. As far as I see it, I'm establishing a relationship with the fish store. I know the owner, and he knows me by name. He's never led me astray with issues that I've had with my tank (I've always double checked his advice with those here on LR, and its always been the same)

To the OP, I'd no longer shop at the store that got you off on the wrong foot, hopefully you have a better store nearby. If you do, patronize it, and talk it up every chance you get - otherwise we'll all be stuck with the crappy fish stores

 

[wontonflip]

My favorite LFS, Marine Scene in Herndon always has given me warnings on what might not work out in my tank. I've been going there for over two years and I have easily spent well over a thousand dollars there if not two.

+1 sen....I love MarineScene...but no matter how good the lfs, I will NEVER go to a fish store and make an impulse buy without first knowing the basics of the equipment or fish. I've done impulse buys, true, but I've always know the minimum requirements/risks involved. I've been steered wrong once by my other favored LFS (miracle mud LOL -- nothing wrong with it, but I could've saved my $$$ and not bought it), but now I know not to impulse buy something I know nothing about.

 

[Northstar24]

Check out the "new anemone" thread in identification or, the "help-blue sided fairy wrasse" thread from yesterday in reef fishes. Whom do you think is at fault? You blame the LFS for selling these items to people who do not have the tanks to keep them happy? Or, the people who buy things that they do not research or even know what they are or how to care for them? At some point, we as consumers, consumers were are buying living creatures, must have some culpability and quit blaming the store. That's like that person who sued McDonald's for making them fat. Honey, it's not McDonald's fault and it's not Petco's.

Both parties are at fault here - the buyer should be aware of what they are buying, but the store also has a responsibility, as they are selling living things- not inanimate objects like electronics or trinkets

 

[SarahSmile]

Oh, I am totally with you, both parties have responsibility. I am just tired of everyone trying to tar and feather the LFS all the darn time. "Well, they SOLD me this and this so it's not my fault it died. They shouldn't have sold it to me" or "they didn't tell me the right thing to do." In this day and age or technology there is just no excuse for killing living creatures through ignorance. In this situation 6 fish were killed through poor/perhaps misunderstood advice, little to no research, and ignorance. So, I just don't want to hop on the "the people at the LFS are bad people" (as posted in the first post) bandwagon. People walk into the store, grab stuff and when it fails, want to whine that it is not their fault, it's the stores' fault for selling to them or not telling them the right stuff. 6 fish?? Really?

 

[wontonflip]

Well, the problem also is that most people starting out in the hobby DO trust the lfs to give them proper information (and in fact, some lfs' do just that -- they educate the buyer. Yote's lfs is very good about that. My other lfs is great with edumacating their customers, but yes, they have convinced me to buy expensive tank things that do not hurt my tank, but I could have done without them. Shame on me.).

It's one of those live-and-learn lessons. If a person doesn't know better, and doesn't think to find a helpful forum, they will rely on the fish store employees. Why shouldn't they? I mean, yes, we know you shouldn't trust them, but still -- if you know nothing about the hobby, why shouldn't they trust a store to hopefully steer you in the right direction? Just playing devil's advocate.

 

[SarahSmile]

Yup yup.. Of course you're right Wonton. We all make mistakes, especially when starting out. I just wish people would put the brakes on and do some research instead of floudering for months killing off stuff and then blame the store and put up a post and say that the people at the store are "bad people", that story made me wince so many times, so much ignorance and I really thought it was going to be a cautionary tale but it turned into a, look at this, I'm the victim of a bad LFS and it's so not my fault. I just wish people would quit using the ol' "the store told me I could have it" and "the store told me to do this" excuses. We're all adults (most of us anyhow) and it would just be fan-dam-tastic if people were to take ownership for their own mistakes, especially after 3 months and 6 dead fish. 3 weeks ago the OP said their tank was set up 2 months and all the levels were "fine" and they were adding a clown.

 

[little_fish]

I think you need to realize that many people have no idea how to research any hobby or that they even need to. We are totally about instant gratification and when the LFS are telling us how to achieve this instant gratification, we tend to believe them. Its only when things are going horrible wrong do we start looking elsewhere. Many people are totally happy to believe that these fish only life a few months and are happy to keep replacing them.

I think the people on this site are very unique from your typical america nowadays. For one, they are taking responsibility for their tank (something I dont see much anymore) and they are actively researching it. I dont think that happens much anymore.