Morality

[RyanG]

What can I do to conscientously create a marine environment? Im struggling to justify taking creatures large and small from their natural environment and keeping them in a small space. Granted 180g is a large tank but not compared to a reef system. Are there any systems in place to ganrantee that aqua-cultured corals and tank raised fish that are being sold are what they claim? I dont want to seem like a tree-hugging hippy but I dont want to contribute to poor collection practices or destroy more of the environment. Sorry to bring up a downer of a topic but can you all help me overcome my moral objections?

 

[ccCapt]

There are quite a few tank bred fish available, but alot of fish are open water spawners (like tangs) and it may be tuff if not impossible to tank raise something like that.
Many places sell aqua-cultured corals. Look for an ORA (Ocean, Reefs & Aquariums) corals. I believe LiveAquaria sells them. I'm pretty sure garf.org sells aqua-cultured corals too. (ask fatman about that) They are not hard to find.

 

[fatman]

There are no regulating agencies with enforcement policies in regard to falsely claiming that wild harvested corals are maricultured or aqua cultured. I have not heard of it yet being a problem. The chief way at this time to at least half way know your getting cultured corals is to buy frags that are on obvious frag disks and not coral colonies on rocks. It would be possible to believe as they shut down access to more and more sites that corals will be taken from the wild and immediately fragged and dumped on the market. It should be a while before that starts happening, but it will surely happen. I do not think it will be long before most wild live rock becomes illegal to harvest. Probably within the next year or two. There are plans for mariculturing a lot of different coral fish. Lot of risk for the investors as it doesn't take a lot to take out even a metal net system considering the power of tropical storms. Glad to see you care!

 

[Bifferwine]

How about joining a local reefing club if there's one nearby? I've gotten some of my favorite corals (and cheapest) from my local reefing club's auctions, and everyone brings in frags of what they already have in their tanks.

 

[cgoodman381]

Maybe your giving them a better home then some noobie would. :question:

 

[reeffreak]

Well that's going to leave out tangs and angels for sure.Live Aquaria has many aquacultured corals and tank bred fish.

 

[Doc]

it is the nature of the hobby. I believe it is our job to be as careful as possible not to put critters that will not survive in our tanks, like a shark in a 55 gallon tank. there is no doubt that some of what we do is selfish, I am the first to admit it. I sleep well at night knowing that I do the best I can to care for the animals that beautify my home. As long as there is no sickness and clean water conditions, I think they are just fine. I have no intention of stopping

-Doc

 

[Altohombre]

they way I look at it is that at least I know that I will try my damn hardest to take care of whatever coral or fish that I buy and that is more than a lot of people can say. So many people get excited about starting a tank and never buy good equipment and kill everything within weeks or just get bored of it and leave it go. I know that my fish are well fed and have reef safe inhabitants that you can't even confirm in the ocean with predators and global warming conditions.

 

[Doc]

good point, if the ocean conditions persist, our tanks may be all that is left of proof that corals and fish actually used to exist!!! That means, I have to get more tanks to keep more fish!!!

-Doc

 

[Bifferwine]

Unfortunately, with some species it will come down to that. Just like it is with many land dwelling species. The only individuals left alive on the planet are in zoos or research facilities, they've been wiped off the face of the earth by human activities and the last few on earth are relics just waiting to die in captivity.

 

[Doc]

Unfortunately, with some species it will come down to that. Just like it is with many land dwelling species. The only individuals left alive on the planet are in zoos or research facilities, they've been wiped off the face of the earth by human activities and the last few on earth are relics just waiting to die in captivity.

gee, um, I after that uplifting post, I may just go outside and jump in front of a bus ;)

 

[kevinsimons]

If you REALLY want to get into the morality of this (or any other) hobby - how about calculating the carbon footprint associated with running these tanks? If you get TOO analytical with all of this, you'll stop living life and crawl into a cave and wait for the end of days (ref: Doc's last post)

I DID calculate the impact I'd have adding by adding 55 gallon tank to my total carbon footprint - and proceeded anyway - largely because I have the smallest carbon footprint of anybody I know (I drive a scooter that gets 70+ MPG and use less than 4 gallons of fuel per month; I work 3 blocks from home, I rarely leave the confines of the 49 square mile city I live in, I only heat my home 3 months out of the year and use no A/C).

I take some comfort knowing that the corals and fish in my tank are safe, being properly cared for, and will (hopefully) live a longer, safer and healthier life in my home than they would in the wild (largely thanks to the awesome help I get from the people on this board).

 

[Doc]

If you REALLY want to get into the morality of this (or any other) hobby - how about calculating the carbon footprint associated with running these tanks? If you get TOO analytical with all of this, you'll stop living life and crawl into a cave and wait for the end of days (ref: Doc's last post)

I DID calculate the impact I'd have adding by adding 55 gallon tank to my total carbon footprint - and proceeded anyway - largely because I have the smallest carbon footprint of anybody I know (I drive a scooter that gets 70+ MPG and use less than 4 gallons of fuel per month; I work 3 blocks from home, I rarely leave the confines of the 49 square mile city I live in, I only heat my home 3 months out of the year and use no A/C).

I take some comfort knowing that the corals and fish in my tank are safe, being properly cared for, and will (hopefully) live a longer, safer and healthier life in my home than they would in the wild (largely thanks to the awesome help I get from the people on this board).

Don't worry Kevin, what you save, I make up for with added carbon footprints!!! I got your back..... wait..... is that a good thing? ;)

-Doc

 

[kevinsimons]

Doc - want to buy my carbon credits? (grin)

 

[Doc]

Doc - want to buy my carbon credits? (grin)

hell ya! Where do I sign!

-Doc

 

[sen5241b]

Reef hobbyists create a lot of awareness of the real reefs. Share what you know. I'm teaching my son a lot about aquatic life and chemistry.

 

[fatman]

One of the todays Zoo's primary object is to find a method for breeding all species of animals they hold in captivity. This is in keeping with if they can not be bred in captivity and are still breeding in the wild it is only natural to believe those still left in the wild are better perpetuating there continued existence than their forced containment where they can not or will not breed will. Looked at it in that light, our having fish in our tanks that can not or will not breed while contained is just self centeredness in our parts. Consider the actual definition of domestication of animals. The definition is dependent on breeding the held animal. We are purposely condemning to death for or own pleasures a lot of species of reef fish, not protecting them under any stretch of an excuse we call humane or deserved. Unless you can say you are containing those fish at all costs and inconveniences in a manner where you are earnestly making all possible efforts to breed them in captivity it is just flat out selfishness to contain those fish. I hear of few people making efforts to even house mated pairs of angels or tangs, yet alone their trying to develop methods to successfully raise the fishes off spring in captivity. I prefer not to house the fish rather than to contribute to their demise. Most fisj do indeed breed willingly in captivity, but methods to raise the young are lacking and usually not employed anyway. I can propagate my corals, and the ones I house are based on my ability to successfully propagate them. I only keep only corals I can propagate, and I try not to keep fish or most invertibrates at all. I do keep smail that brred in captivity. I do not have the finances, time or education and/or experiences needed to run a tropical reef hatchery or research facility. Although I wish I did. I do get towork as an assistant to thesite engineer this summer during thebuilding of a large state owned fish hatchery. At this time I believe most unbreedable coral reef fish should chiefly be housed by such research facilities or persons who are ready to devote their resources to bredding said fish. I am not an advocate of everybody having free rein at their own private possession of any and all species of fish or animals that grow on this earth. I do not consider myself a tree hugger. I just consider myself an educated and experienced person with a lot of experience with the ignorance, greed, and self centeredness of most of "civilized" mankind.

 

[kevinsimons]

Doc - (or anybody else)...you want to offset your carbon footprint? do it here: http://www.terrapass.com/

 

[fatman]

Want to see huge carbon foot prints. Look at the carbon footprints of Alaskans. It is winter seven months per year up here and longer up in northern Alaska. Half the population lives off the raod system where flying is done very often if not daily then at least weekly. Everbody has trucks, usually four wheel drives. It is common to drive 20 to 40 miles each way to work every day. ATV's and snow machines litter every bodies yards up her, and river boats with dual 100 HP plus jet units are all over every summer. Virtually nothing is produced here but is shipped up here mostly buy plane. We be carbon whores up here. Just the amount of fuel spent getting all the tourists to, from and around Alaska every summer is astronomical. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of tour busses all summerlong, and the cruise ships. We have many, many hotels and motels only open in the summer to provide for tourists. That makes for huge carbon footprints. Then there is the fact that the oil companies are still burning off huge amountsof natural gas 24 hours aday at Prudoe Bay beacuse they can, and because it is cheaper than reinjecting. It is the only place in the United States with higher emissions than those in LA and other areas of California.

 

[yote]

Better for somebody to take that animal and know its needs and care level than to let somebody that dont really care if it lives or not.
just my 2 cents.