Chemistry Issues
- Thread starter Rcpilot
- Start date
Rcpilot
Reef pro
- Location
- Melbourne, FL
What I don't understand is WHY am I having these problems with Alk. It appears that the Alk has a drastic effect on the pH and calcium. If I can control the Alk, the pH and calcium will be in line, or at least easier to manage.
If I knew what was causing my Alk to be so low, maybe I could fix it. Is it a lack of oxygen? Is it too much co2 in the water? Are the live rocks using it? Are my zoas and mushrooms using it?
WHERE does it go? Do I need a different type of sand bed?
If I knew what was causing my Alk to be so low, maybe I could fix it. Is it a lack of oxygen? Is it too much co2 in the water? Are the live rocks using it? Are my zoas and mushrooms using it?
WHERE does it go? Do I need a different type of sand bed?
everything uses alkalinity. Your fish use it to grow, as do corals, shrimp to molt, snails for their shells, etc. There is a chance your tank is using it pretty fast. I know mine does. I have to dose it weekly to keep it high. If I leave it alone, it will drop three points in a week. Buy that purple label Seachem and start dosing. Regular water changes and dosing should fix that problem for you. BUT still, take your water to the LFS to test it anyways
-Doc
-Doc
Rcpilot
Reef pro
- Location
- Melbourne, FL
I have exactly that Doc. It's the purple label of Seachem Reef Buffer. It's supposed to raise Alk and pH.
The label says they also offer Reef Builder which will raise the Alk and not effect the pH. I do not have that one yet. I have the one that will raise BOTH pH and Alk.
Somebody on another forum told me that Oceanic is low on Alk anyways. They suggested that I buy some Coralife and mix the two different types. Gonna have to do something--I'm not throwing a 160g bucket of salt in the garbage.
You think I should not worry about it and just dose it up? REALLY wish I didn't have to dose my tank. Was hoping there was something I could do that would help it maintain the Alk on it's own.
The label says they also offer Reef Builder which will raise the Alk and not effect the pH. I do not have that one yet. I have the one that will raise BOTH pH and Alk.
Somebody on another forum told me that Oceanic is low on Alk anyways. They suggested that I buy some Coralife and mix the two different types. Gonna have to do something--I'm not throwing a 160g bucket of salt in the garbage.
You think I should not worry about it and just dose it up? REALLY wish I didn't have to dose my tank. Was hoping there was something I could do that would help it maintain the Alk on it's own.
there isn't unless you want to sacrifice your corals. We all love to stock our tanks full of corals and other inverts, but there is no way to maintain the levels you need without dosing. EVERYONE doses their tanks. Just have to get used to it. It doesn't harm anything, it is just kinda irritating at times.
-Doc
-Doc
reeffreak
Reef pro
- Location
- Clarksville,Tn
Rc,I've haven't dose for pH or akalinity all year.I just dunno where you problem is coming from.Who knows maybe its the sand.Is it sand or crush coral-cc does lose its buffering capacity over time.It has to be that or the salt.I really,really like the Kent Salt.
Rcpilot
Reef pro
- Location
- Melbourne, FL
I cycled an empty tank with 40 pounds of crushed coral and a shrimp. I later realized that I wanted fine sand, rather than CC. I took all the CC out of the tank and ran it through a kitchen blender. About 1 pound at a time. Got it all ground up and dumped it back in the tank. I did reduce the size of 90% of it down to fine sand. 100% of it is now less than 1/8" in size with about 85% of it being small enough for my goby to sift through his gills.
That wasn't good enough, so I added 20 pounds of fine reef sand. I got 60 pounds of substrate in my 30g tank.
I may buy some different salt mix and start combining the two different brands. Mixing a special "fresh" batch of saltwater right now and am going to test all parameters.
Maybe it's this?
I mix my saltwater and keep about 20g of it in a rubbermaid bin. I change 5 or 6g on Sunday and then add some more salt and RO water to the rubbermaid bin.
Is it bad to leave all that saltwater just sitting in a rubbermaid with a powerhead and a heater for a week or more? It gets used, and new stuff gets added. But, I have 20g sitting around all the time. Does it go"bad" just sitting?
That wasn't good enough, so I added 20 pounds of fine reef sand. I got 60 pounds of substrate in my 30g tank.
I may buy some different salt mix and start combining the two different brands. Mixing a special "fresh" batch of saltwater right now and am going to test all parameters.
Maybe it's this?
I mix my saltwater and keep about 20g of it in a rubbermaid bin. I change 5 or 6g on Sunday and then add some more salt and RO water to the rubbermaid bin.
Is it bad to leave all that saltwater just sitting in a rubbermaid with a powerhead and a heater for a week or more? It gets used, and new stuff gets added. But, I have 20g sitting around all the time. Does it go"bad" just sitting?
reeffreak
Reef pro
- Location
- Clarksville,Tn
I've keep saltwater for months.As long as there's no natural light,it should never go bad.I do keep a lid to prevent evaporation.I think you best bet to try a different salt.
Bifferwine
I am a girl
- Location
- Lynnwood, WA and missing Tucson, AZ
Doc, alkalinity is not "used" up. Alkalinity is simply a number that indicates the capability of your system to buffer against changes in pH.
I also mix up saltwater and leave it sitting for several weeks at a time. So that's not it.
If I had to hazard a guess, I would say it's because you put crushed coral in a blender... Your substrate is still crushed coral, it's just more crushed than usual. Now, I don't know if there is any difference between aragonite sand and crushed crushed coral in physical or chemical properties, but that's the only thing that stands out to me that could be causing problems.
HAWKS12thMAN
NWKRC THUG!
- Location
- Cle Elum, WA
I agree with biff. Crushed/grinded up coral is still CC! How is you blender blade after that BTW?
I dont bother doing weekly watr changes. Once a month I do a massive water change and heres my reasoning........ (WORK SITED BIFFY! SeaHorse Aquarium Supply)
WHY LARGER WATER CHANGES
When it comes to do a water change, 1 large change per month is much more effective than many smaller changes over a month's time. The temperature doesn't need to be the same - plus or minus 15 degrees is fine. Salt concentration plus or minus 0.002 is fine also. Use the opportunity to adjust your salt level in the tank. If your tank is lower than you want, add slightly more salty new water. The logic is like this:
Let's say we have a 100 gallon tank and there are 100 nitrates to be removed. If you change 10 gallons you remove 10 nitrates. Adding new water dilutes the nitrates and there are 90 left. Changing 10 more gallons removes 9 nitrates. the next 10 gallon change removes 8.1 nitrates. 3 water changes removes 27.1 nitrates.
Now do a 50 gallon change. 50 nitrates are gone. Replace with new water and do another 50 gallon change which removes 25 nitrates. 2 water changes removes 75 nitrates. Get the idea.
I dont bother doing weekly watr changes. Once a month I do a massive water change and heres my reasoning........ (WORK SITED BIFFY! SeaHorse Aquarium Supply)
WHY LARGER WATER CHANGES
When it comes to do a water change, 1 large change per month is much more effective than many smaller changes over a month's time. The temperature doesn't need to be the same - plus or minus 15 degrees is fine. Salt concentration plus or minus 0.002 is fine also. Use the opportunity to adjust your salt level in the tank. If your tank is lower than you want, add slightly more salty new water. The logic is like this:
Let's say we have a 100 gallon tank and there are 100 nitrates to be removed. If you change 10 gallons you remove 10 nitrates. Adding new water dilutes the nitrates and there are 90 left. Changing 10 more gallons removes 9 nitrates. the next 10 gallon change removes 8.1 nitrates. 3 water changes removes 27.1 nitrates.
Now do a 50 gallon change. 50 nitrates are gone. Replace with new water and do another 50 gallon change which removes 25 nitrates. 2 water changes removes 75 nitrates. Get the idea.
Rcpilot
Reef pro
- Location
- Melbourne, FL
Forgive a newbie for what must seam like an obvious answer. I thought the CC was supposed to help buffer the system and keep it stable? You all are telling me this could be my problem. Why?
Bifferwine
I am a girl
- Location
- Lynnwood, WA and missing Tucson, AZ
Aragonite sand is an excellent buffer. Crushed coral is not. Crushed coral loses its buffering capacity very quickly. That's why I always tell people to use aragonite sand and not crushed coral when they ask about substrate selection. I'm not sure why this is... I could do some research on why crushed coral is not a good buffer and why aragonite sand is, but I'm at work now :(.
Rcpilot
Reef pro
- Location
- Melbourne, FL
No need to do research Biff. I'll take your word for it.
Okay, so lets say I pull the DSB out of my tank slowly. Should I replace it with argonite sand? Or just go bare bottom?
There is a DSB of argonite sand in the refugium.
Okay, so lets say I pull the DSB out of my tank slowly. Should I replace it with argonite sand? Or just go bare bottom?
There is a DSB of argonite sand in the refugium.
Bifferwine
I am a girl
- Location
- Lynnwood, WA and missing Tucson, AZ
If you go bare bottom, you will have no buffering capacity except for what's in your fuge. I'd go aragonite sand, 2 to 4 inches deep.
reeffreak
Reef pro
- Location
- Clarksville,Tn
Sorry,I'm not a chemist so I don't know why aragonite buffers better than crush corals.I read something on it back in the late 90's.It was a long term test between bare bottom,aragonite,crush coral and dolomite.Aragonite was preferred over all others because of its buffering capacity over the lifetime of a system.
If you do decide to change out substrate,go all live aragonite sand.It will speed up any mini cycle or maybe eliminate it all together.Don't forget to put all you animals in a holding tank.
If you do decide to change out substrate,go all live aragonite sand.It will speed up any mini cycle or maybe eliminate it all together.Don't forget to put all you animals in a holding tank.
yote
In Memoriam
The only thing is.Aragonite dont start dissolving enough to buffer untill your PH starts getting closer to 7.0.(read that some where).If your PH falls enough for that to happen,all your fish and corals are gonna die.
reeffreak
Reef pro
- Location
- Clarksville,Tn
I read this a little differently Yote,
For a aragonite to dissolve at any meaningful way,meaning to put back calcium and other trace elements the pH needs to be low.Thats what aragonite does is keep pH from getting dangerously low.I know on my 72g that I started with a 3'' bed and going on the second year I had to add 1'' of sand more a year.Thats how much it dissolved after the second year.IMO,aragonite will dissolve at normal 8.3 but not enough to keep up with trace element consumption.
For a aragonite to dissolve at any meaningful way,meaning to put back calcium and other trace elements the pH needs to be low.Thats what aragonite does is keep pH from getting dangerously low.I know on my 72g that I started with a 3'' bed and going on the second year I had to add 1'' of sand more a year.Thats how much it dissolved after the second year.IMO,aragonite will dissolve at normal 8.3 but not enough to keep up with trace element consumption.
Rcpilot
Reef pro
- Location
- Melbourne, FL
The thought of changing out all my DSB in the DT is a nightmare.
I'll have to drain about 50--70% of the tank water into my rubbermaid tub. Then I'll have to put all my live rock, corals and fish in the 24g rubbermaid tub. Then drain the tank of any remaining water and scoop all the existing DSB into a waste can.
So, how do you go about getting the tank setup again? All the live rock is in the rubbermaid tub. I can put 60 pounds of live sand in the tank and wait for it to cycle. For how long? Could take a week or more. It sure would be a lot faster cycle if I could get that live rock back in there. I just risk killing my inverts if I do that. :shock:
Then, when the tank is cycled--start acclimating fish and inverts back to the tank?
How would you do it?
:frustrat: :frustrat: :frustrat: :passedout
Anybody wanna buy a fish tank? :grumble: Almost perfect condition .........
I'll have to drain about 50--70% of the tank water into my rubbermaid tub. Then I'll have to put all my live rock, corals and fish in the 24g rubbermaid tub. Then drain the tank of any remaining water and scoop all the existing DSB into a waste can.
So, how do you go about getting the tank setup again? All the live rock is in the rubbermaid tub. I can put 60 pounds of live sand in the tank and wait for it to cycle. For how long? Could take a week or more. It sure would be a lot faster cycle if I could get that live rock back in there. I just risk killing my inverts if I do that. :shock:
Then, when the tank is cycled--start acclimating fish and inverts back to the tank?
How would you do it?
:frustrat: :frustrat: :frustrat: :passedout
Anybody wanna buy a fish tank? :grumble: Almost perfect condition .........
reeffreak
Reef pro
- Location
- Clarksville,Tn
Put everything in a holding tank with some of the original water.
Remove substrate,add new
Put live rock back in the display
Let it run til the water clears.I say within two days everything can go back in if there's no ammonia or nitrite.
Remove substrate,add new
Put live rock back in the display
Let it run til the water clears.I say within two days everything can go back in if there's no ammonia or nitrite.
