Carbonate Hardness Dropping
- Thread starter sen5241b
- Start date
ndepratt
Equipment Junkie
holy christ that's insane DKH!
sen5241b
Reef enthusiast
I put 150 watt MH over my 29 about a month ago. A factor? Also, the coralline algae is covering almost everything. Could the coralline be sucking too much calcium and mag out of the water?
sen5241b
Reef enthusiast
I put 1 green plate coral in there a week ago --my first coral ever. The low alk problems started before then.
I'm really beginning to believe that I just need to do more water changes, I've been doing a 20% change a month. A couple months ago I did a 40% change. Before dosing or changing salts I'm going to try a series of water changes. Could this be it?
I'm really beginning to believe that I just need to do more water changes, I've been doing a 20% change a month. A couple months ago I did a 40% change. Before dosing or changing salts I'm going to try a series of water changes. Could this be it?
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daugherty
part time reefer
it very well could be since coraline needs cal to grow. what is your mag levels
imo 20% water change a month is not enough for a reef tank. slow down mate you have nothing to worry about. the coraline algea is GOOD in my IMO do 10% water change a week ur coraline algea is going to grow fast now you have not got nothing in there wanting the calcium and competing with it. as soon as you start putting more hard corals in it will balance its selfout then your going to have the oppisite problem not enough calcium lol.it all depends what corals your gonna keep. what you think ov ??? also whats all your parimeters read manythanks
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ccCapt
Reef Hacker
I'm sure I've posted this before, and others probably have too, but PLEASE take the time to read it. There seems to be alot of misunderstandings on how ca, alk, mag gets used by coral/coralline in a tank.
A Simplified Guide to the Relationship Between Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium and pH
From the article...
The effect of corals, coralline algae and other organisms that deposit calcium carbonate, while not exactly the same as abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate, has some similar attributes with respect to the interrelationships between calcium, alkalinity, pH and magnesium. Some of these are:
A Simplified Guide to the Relationship Between Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium and pH
From the article...
The effect of corals, coralline algae and other organisms that deposit calcium carbonate, while not exactly the same as abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate, has some similar attributes with respect to the interrelationships between calcium, alkalinity, pH and magnesium. Some of these are:
1. Corals and coralline algae use calcium and alkalinity almost exclusively to deposit calcium carbonate. Because of this they use a fixed ratio of calcium to alkalinity, which is driven by the ratio of calcium and carbonate in calcium carbonate (1:1). The net consumption is about 18-20 ppm of calcium for each 1 meq/L (2.8 dKH) of alkalinity. The reason the amount of calcium varies is that the incorporation of magnesium in place of calcium varies a bit from species to species.
2. The fact that corals and coralline algae use a fixed ratio of calcium to alkalinity allows supplements to be devised that mirror this exact ratio. Using such an additive system allows accurate matching of the supplement to the demand, and does not cause rapid swings in calcium or alkalinity relative to each other if the additions are not perfect. Such balanced additives include calcium carbonate/carbon dioxide reactors, limewater/kalkwasser and two-part supplements, among others.
3. Under natural seawater conditions (calcium = 420 ppm, pH = 8.2, alkalinity = 2.5 meq/L (7 dKH)), many corals and coralline algae are thought to be limited in their calcification rate by the water's alkalinity level. If the water has additional bicarbonate (alkalinity) in it, then it is possible for deposition of calcium carbonate to occur more rapidly. In other words, if alkalinity is increased in a reef aquarium, then the deposition of calcium carbonate can reduce both calcium and alkalinity.
4. If the water's calcium level is below a certain threshold (about 360 ppm when alkalinity is normal), then it can limit calcium carbonate skeletal deposition by corals. In this situation, boosting calcium to natural levels or higher will reduce the alkalinity over time as corals begin to use the calcium and alkalinity at a faster rate.
5. If the concentration of calcium or carbonate is too low in a reef aquarium, then corals will have a harder time depositing their calcium carbonate skeletons. Such conditions can stress or even kill them. Under extreme conditions, their skeletons can even dissolve. Aquarists often overlook pH as a big driver in reducing carbonate concentration. Even if the calcium and alkalinity match normal seawater concentrations, pH values below about 7.7 can permit aragonite skeletons to slowly dissolve because the amount of carbonate in solution is so low.
2. The fact that corals and coralline algae use a fixed ratio of calcium to alkalinity allows supplements to be devised that mirror this exact ratio. Using such an additive system allows accurate matching of the supplement to the demand, and does not cause rapid swings in calcium or alkalinity relative to each other if the additions are not perfect. Such balanced additives include calcium carbonate/carbon dioxide reactors, limewater/kalkwasser and two-part supplements, among others.
3. Under natural seawater conditions (calcium = 420 ppm, pH = 8.2, alkalinity = 2.5 meq/L (7 dKH)), many corals and coralline algae are thought to be limited in their calcification rate by the water's alkalinity level. If the water has additional bicarbonate (alkalinity) in it, then it is possible for deposition of calcium carbonate to occur more rapidly. In other words, if alkalinity is increased in a reef aquarium, then the deposition of calcium carbonate can reduce both calcium and alkalinity.
4. If the water's calcium level is below a certain threshold (about 360 ppm when alkalinity is normal), then it can limit calcium carbonate skeletal deposition by corals. In this situation, boosting calcium to natural levels or higher will reduce the alkalinity over time as corals begin to use the calcium and alkalinity at a faster rate.
5. If the concentration of calcium or carbonate is too low in a reef aquarium, then corals will have a harder time depositing their calcium carbonate skeletons. Such conditions can stress or even kill them. Under extreme conditions, their skeletons can even dissolve. Aquarists often overlook pH as a big driver in reducing carbonate concentration. Even if the calcium and alkalinity match normal seawater concentrations, pH values below about 7.7 can permit aragonite skeletons to slowly dissolve because the amount of carbonate in solution is so low.
the link you have gaveA Simplified Guide to the Relationship Between Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium and pH is for marine EXPERTS i think most people would have dificulty getting there head around this article i think he wants some help in plain english. how dificult can you make it for a person to understand thats new to the hooby hes got nothing in the tank thats why is coraline algae is growing fast.
ps if this is simplified please dont show me a difficult guide lol
ps if this is simplified please dont show me a difficult guide lol
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ccCapt
Reef Hacker
You don't need to be an expert to read. ;)
And I don't think it takes an expert to understand that if the system uses 20ppm calcium, it uses 2.8 dKH alk.
yote
In Memoriam
What Capt is saying,is you've got to have balanced calcium,alkalinity,and magnesium.If their not balanced,your systems going to use one quicker than the other.So you'll be chasing them all over the place with suppliments and additives,which isnt very good for corals.They need stable parameters to thrive and do well.
sen5241b
Reef enthusiast
And water changes is the best way to balance them?
yote
In Memoriam
If their already out of balance in the tank,then their still going to be balanced after you've done a water change.
Reef Chemistry Calculator
Use this to get your calcium and alkalinity balanced,and keep it balanced.It'll make life so much simpler and your tank a lot happier.
Reef Chemistry Calculator
Use this to get your calcium and alkalinity balanced,and keep it balanced.It'll make life so much simpler and your tank a lot happier.
sen5241b
Reef enthusiast
You mean they'll still be out of balance after a water change. If the ph and alk are sufficient in the new water the coralline (or whatever) will suck out the calcium and mag resulting in the same imbalance?
ccCapt
Reef Hacker
What that article says is simply calcium, alkalinity and magnesium are used in a defined ratio. It doesn't matter if your ca is 600 and alk 7 dKH (which is out of balance as far as natural seawater). If your system uses 20 ppm ca, your ca level will drop to 580 and along with that your alk will drop to 4.2 dKH. There is no problem keeping ca that high, but there is also no advantage to it either. Ideally, you want to keep your parameters as close to natural seawater as possible, since there is nothing better than nature. However you attain those NSW parameters doesn't matter as long as you replenish what used. You just don't want your levels too high or you can have a precipitation event (snow storm in the tank or calcium carbonate build up on your pumps and heaters) or too low and stop the calcification process.
Alot does have to do with the salt brand. Oceanic is by far the most imbalanced salt, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work. You just have to be aware of what your tank consumes and dose based on that.
Alot does have to do with the salt brand. Oceanic is by far the most imbalanced salt, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work. You just have to be aware of what your tank consumes and dose based on that.
Sorry Yote, but that is not true. The ratio of ca/alk used in the calcification process will not/can not change. It will always use 18-20 ppm ca for every 2.8 dKH of alk used. If your ca or alk is too low, the process will stop and nothing will get used.
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yote
In Memoriam
Learn something new everyday:D
I was thinking though,that the calcium and alkalinity was supposed to be balanced.So much alkalinity per so much calcium.Thought I'd read it somewhere,but that was like 2 or 3 years ago.:dunno:
I was thinking though,that the calcium and alkalinity was supposed to be balanced.So much alkalinity per so much calcium.Thought I'd read it somewhere,but that was like 2 or 3 years ago.:dunno:
dcantucson
Reef pro
Do we need a chemistry degree to understand this stuff! It seems like it sometimes.
tankedchemist
Reef enthusiast
even then, the terminology is not standardized in the hobby, so it still takes some work to figure WTF people are talkin' about. :D
ndepratt
Equipment Junkie
that was a great post, capt!
