Aqua Boy's 11 Gallon Nano Tank Thread

[Sharkie]

i'll agree with everyone, when you have tiny nano tanks (i consider this anything under 40g) you have to make sure your water quailty is PERFECT... 100% of the time. that means watching how many fish you have in there... generally speaking if your tank is 10g you should only have 1-2 VERY small fish. My sisters 10g reef has 2 tiny damsels and thats it. a few hermits and a snail but nothing else.... thats probably the biggest mistake anyone can make.

What type of lighting do you have for the corals. what type of filtration are you using? has the tank cycled or have you tested the water with a liquid test kit? whats the salinty of the tank? There are tons of factors that have to be watched and looked at when keeping a tank...

a QT is a MUST for any hobbiest, weather its a 10g or a 2g tank, it requires a QT with nothing much in it except for the fish.. when you buy or get a fish free you should expect to QT it for a bit of time, treat it for any problems, and then once its better add it to the tank, flushing a perfectly good tang was NOT a good idea, you could've treated it since you most likely caught it at the beginning. The reason it got ick is because you have it in such a small environment that it couldn't HELP but get it. a 11g tank is TOO TOO small for the bioload you have and chances are the other fish are going to get sick as well.... I'm not trying to be mean, just give you some stern advice as well as the rest of the people on here.... Tangs are a bit more fragile than other fish but you could've nursed him back to health with a bit of garlic soaked food, a UV steralizer, and some general TLC. these are fish with feelings weather or not you like it. Trust me, the more you get int othis hobby the more you'll find that these fish each have their own personality and each will react differently to you.... these are like children, you wouldn't flush a kid down the drain because it got a runny nose would you?

 

[Picasso]

Aquaboy, I really hope you join our community. You are learning marine tanks and this is a great place for information and support. Please, feel free to ask for opinions before you purchase or treat your fish and corals. There are some extremely knowledgeable people here willing to help.

Catherine

 

[Aqua Boy]

i'll agree with everyone, when you have tiny nano tanks (i consider this anything under 40g) you have to make sure your water quailty is PERFECT... 100% of the time. that means watching how many fish you have in there... generally speaking if your tank is 10g you should only have 1-2 VERY small fish. My sisters 10g reef has 2 tiny damsels and thats it. a few hermits and a snail but nothing else.... thats probably the biggest mistake anyone can make.

What type of lighting do you have for the corals. what type of filtration are you using? has the tank cycled or have you tested the water with a liquid test kit? whats the salinty of the tank? There are tons of factors that have to be watched and looked at when keeping a tank...

a QT is a MUST for any hobbiest, weather its a 10g or a 2g tank, it requires a QT with nothing much in it except for the fish.. when you buy or get a fish free you should expect to QT it for a bit of time, treat it for any problems, and then once its better add it to the tank, flushing a perfectly good tang was NOT a good idea, you could've treated it since you most likely caught it at the beginning. The reason it got ick is because you have it in such a small environment that it couldn't HELP but get it. a 11g tank is TOO TOO small for the bioload you have and chances are the other fish are going to get sick as well.... I'm not trying to be mean, just give you some stern advice as well as the rest of the people on here.... Tangs are a bit more fragile than other fish but you could've nursed him back to health with a bit of garlic soaked food, a UV steralizer, and some general TLC. these are fish with feelings weather or not you like it. Trust me, the more you get int othis hobby the more you'll find that these fish each have their own personality and each will react differently to you.... these are like children, you wouldn't flush a kid down the drain because it got a runny nose would you?

This is actually to everyone...but just quoting here. The tank is not NEW, it is cycled already with everything coming from a cycled system (water and all) and I understand the feelings felt for the loss of a fish. It was not my first desire. Although I am new to Marine tanks...I have a GREAT deal of understanding for Ich as it is not new to me. It is also very common in the fresh world. (As if you don't know).

The reason I was pretty much forced to flush was to protect the other inhabitants, not just to do it. I do not have a QT ready YET and rushing to the store to get supplies was not an option for me (Tank/Flow/Chemical/Etc). Had my friend Ben not been out of town for the holidays I could have easily used one of his 2 QT tanks. Unfortunately he wasn't available and won't be home until after the new year. The fact is that the tang had Ich and was scratching pretty bad and when I caught it already had a very bad scratch on the left flank from its behavior. Yesterday I also called the supplier to have them check and they have confirmed a few of the fish from the tank are also showing Ich. It was not the size of the tank like some are suggesting. It was most likely introduced with the fish and the other fish have been QT'd at the site. I know the owner of the supply house so he was very quick to react.

Although I appreciate the input being given....sometimes going overboard with emotional commentary is a little bit of a stretch. Everyone here may think they are "professionals" but it is important to keep in mind that there are different reasons for doing different things with different ideas behind them.

I'll be the first to admit that fish have personalities...I know this from my diving experience and my other tanks. I did not see risking my other fish and prolonging the probable death of the tang based on circumstances to be the wisest choice. If there are any members here in the SoCal area I would have been happy to GIVE a person a fish if they wanted to nurse it.

 

[Bifferwine]

Ich is an opportunistic parasite that is believed to be present on all fish unless they are quarantined and copper treated/hypsalinity treated for several weeks. When you first buy a fish, I guarantee that it will be a carrier of ich regardless of the supplier. Ich does not manifest itself on fish unless the fish is stressed, unhealthy or otherwise compromised. Most fish live their entire lives as carriers of ich, never showing symptoms and never being affected by it.

In spite of what you believe, putting a tang in a small tank is a surefire way to stress it enough that ich will be able to take hold.

And BTW, I am a professional as well as a hobbyist. I don't just "think" I am a professional as you say, I have three college degrees in this field as well as a job that I go to every day. I also have 9+ years of experience in this hobby, and many people on here have decades of experience. We're not just shooting from the hip when we say things...

 

[Aqua Boy]

Aquaboy, I really hope you join our community. You are learning marine tanks and this is a great place for information and support. Please, feel free to ask for opinions before you purchase or treat your fish and corals. There are some extremely knowledgeable people here willing to help.

Catherine

Thanks Catherine. I appreciate it. :D

 

[Aqua Boy]

Ich is an opportunistic parasite that is believed to be present on all fish unless they are quarantined and copper treated/hypsalinity treated for several weeks. When you first buy a fish, I guarantee that it will be a carrier of ich regardless of the supplier. Ich does not manifest itself on fish unless the fish is stressed, unhealthy or otherwise compromised. Most fish live their entire lives as carriers of ich, never showing symptoms and never being affected by it.

In spite of what you believe, putting a tang in a small tank is a surefire way to stress it enough that ich will be able to take hold.

And BTW, I am a professional as well as a hobbyist. I don't just "think" I am a professional as you say, I have three college degrees in this field and a job that I go to every day that backs that up.

Bifferwine,

Easy...it wasn't meant to strike a nerve or to state anyones intelligence was not intact. It was meant to state that there are several people with several opinions and several ways to do things and everyone thinks they are right and its the only way. I am happy for you that you have 3 college degrees but again the emotional commentary attached is what I refer to. My degrees in psychology and social behavior with industrial safety and environmental certifications also help me at my job yet I still won't claim to be a professional as I can still learn.

I do not agree with you that ALL fish have Ich because some fish have never shown signs or been attacked by it, BUT presuming would be a good approach. The tang was most likely ALREADY stressed before it got to me and I just helped it manifest during transport and perhaps the tank. I did make the mistake of not asking how long the fish were at the supplier which I typically do. Bad on my part, a reminder of the fragility involved.

I will be sure to consult the forum in the future to ask for some advice WITH an explanation of what is going on. (These cyber @#$ whippings are not fun for me:mrgreen:)

 

[Picasso]

Although I appreciate the input being given....sometimes going overboard with emotional commentary is a little bit of a stretch. Everyone here may think they are "professionals" but it is important to keep in mind that there are different reasons for doing different things with different ideas behind them.

I'm not a "professional" when it comes to marine tanks and I don't pretend to be one. Every source I've read, every "professional" I've talked to recommends one maybe 2 small fish in a tank your size. It is certain that you caused that tang to get ich and then you jumped the gun on euthanising it which, in my opinion, is horrible. We can keep in mind that people have different motivations for keeping tanks but it is difficult to read someone making beginner mistakes and causing the death of a fish no matter what the intent of your tanks. If your tank is a decorator item without regard to the welfare of it's inhabitants then I suggest you find an interior decorator board to post your pics to. If you want to explore the beauty of marine tanks and hope to create a living work of art which provides well for its inhabitants then please stay here and learn from the persons giving you feedback. Some are professionals, some are extreme hobbyists and some are newbies we are all learning together. In the mean time I certainly hope you've reduced the bio-load of your 11 gallon tank because it is cruel to house that many fish together in such a small space!

Intelligent people are taking time out of their life to help you and help your fish. I'm glad you're here so you can learn with us.

Catherine

 

[Aqua Boy]

I'm not a "professional" when it comes to marine tanks and I don't pretend to be one. Every source I've read, every "professional" I've talked to recommends one maybe 2 small fish in a tank your size. It is certain that you caused that tang to get ich and then you jumped the gun on euthanising it which, in my opinion, is horrible. We can keep in mind that people have different motivations for keeping tanks but it is difficult to read someone making beginner mistakes and causing the death of a fish no matter what the intent of your tanks. If your tank is a decorator item without regard to the welfare of it's inhabitants then I suggest you find an interior decorator board to post your pics to. If you want to explore the beauty of marine tanks and hope to create a living work of art which provides well for its inhabitants then please stay here and learn from the persons giving you feedback. Some are professionals, some are extreme hobbyists and some are newbies we are all learning together. In the mean time I certainly hope you've reduced the bio-load of your 11 gallon tank because it is cruel to house that many fish together in such a small space!

Intelligent people are taking time out of their life to help you and help your fish. I'm glad you're here so you can learn with us.

Catherine

Thank you again....:mrgreen:

Maybe this is the mistake I am assuming. Do you have a chart showing me the "Bioload" capabilities of marine tanks based on tank sizes that incorporates the other inhabitants and filtration/water change cycles and systems in place? I know this is old school but in the freshwater world " 1" per gallon was the rule of thumb" which I dramatically bursted with great success. I do not really know what the rule is for marine. See, when you say the recommended fish is 1 or 2 for an 11 Gallon tank based on bioload can be interpreted differently. Is that one or two inch long fish, or one or two 4" fish. Or is the better approach to disregard that and monitor the water quality and ensure proper skimming/filtration and do more water changes?

 

[Bifferwine]

In saltwater it's very different. One fish per 10 gallons. "One fish" meaning a fish that's approximately one inch long. This is flexible to some degree, but I wouldn't recommend keeping more than 2 fish in a 10 gallon tank... Even if you have excellent filtration and do water changes, saltwater fish need a lot of swimming space. You can have the most perfect water possible, and a large fish in a small tank will still stress and die.

Not only swimming space factors in, but marine fish can be extremely territorial, often fighting to the death over space.

For example, you may not think that three fish in a 75 gallon tank is a lot, but try putting three clownfish in a 75 gallon tank. 99% of the time, one of them will end up bullied to death. The other clowns will seek the odd one out, regardless of tank size.

You can't stock saltwater tanks like freshwater -- even the smallest tangs need a lot of swimming space to stay healthy. 4 feet is recommended. An 11 gallon tank is a fraction of the size that a tang requires to survive.

 

[Picasso]

+1 Biff. It is my understanding that the fish have a myriad of biological needs and the quality of the tank water is but one of these needs. I think, I could be wrong, but I think it's different for each fish. Other needs could be; hunting grounds, physical exercise, territorial needs and many more. The one inch per 10 gallons is a guideline, sure, because water quality is only one aspect of the tank. You can have clean water and the wrong temperature, bad lighting or no oxygen and that won't do for a fish.

I can't point to a specific chart which lists these guidelines but after reading your post it seems like you've got a renegade attitude about stocking your tanks and you would think the chart didn't apply to you. Aquarium Fish: Tropical Freshwater Fish and Saltwater Fish for Home Aquariums has a wonderful library of fishes and list their general physical requirements.

Catherine

 

[Aqua Boy]

Thanks Bifferwine.

Has anyone here been successful with Heat treating or non-medicating in marine? I am also a firm believer in non-chemical approaches when possible. I place high value on the Firefish and the Percula and would like preventative advice knowing the Ich may still be in the tank. I know the magic temp is over 80 but what will my salt fish and coral tolerate?

 

[yote]

In a marine tank,you cant go by bio-load.You have to look at each fishes activity levels.Extremely active fish such as Regal (blue) tangs need a lot of swimming room,where as something like a blenny don't need hardly as much for a fish the same size.
Thats a mistake that nearly ALL the converted freshwater hobbiest make when the switch to salt.You can get away with a grossly overstocked freshwater tank,but 99.99% of the time,a moderatly overstocked marine tank will crash killing everything in it.

 

[Bifferwine]

Most people here are in the same boat as you when it comes to using chemicals. I think they should only be used as a last option. In saltwater, there is a non-chemical solution to almost every problem.

Ich will live perfectly fine above 80 degrees -- in fact, warmer temps will only accelerate its reproduction.

There are only two surefire ways to eliminate ich: hypsalinity and copper. Both of which are stressful to fish and cannot be done in the tank, since both methods are fatal to inverts and the bacteria living in and on rock and sand.

Ich is definitely still in the tank, as I said before, any fish can be a host to the parasite without showing symptoms. The only way to eliminate it from the tank is to remove all your fish to a separate tank, treat them with hyposalinity or copper, and leave the tank fallow (fishless) for 8 weeks. The ich will survive as long as there is a fish in the tank, but if the fish are gone, the ich will eventually die off.

In the vast majority of tanks, ich never poses a problem. Keep your water quality high, keep your bioload in check, and keep the environment as stress free as possible, and your fish will never become stressed enough to get ich. When fish do get ich, they are usually able to recover from it on their own without any treatment. Just make sure they continue to eat, and fortify their foods with garlic extract and amino acid supplements to boost their immune systems.

Ich shouldn't be feared, and I think it's overboard to aim for an ich-free tank. Oftentimes, the treatments for ich are more stressful to the fish than the parasite itself.

 

[Aqua Boy]

+1 Biff. It is my understanding that the fish have a myriad of biological needs and the quality of the tank water is but one of these needs. I think, I could be wrong, but I think it's different for each fish. Other needs could be; hunting grounds, physical exercise, territorial needs and many more. The one inch per 10 gallons is a guideline, sure, because water quality is only one aspect of the tank. You can have clean water and the wrong temperature, bad lighting or no oxygen and that won't do for a fish.

I can't point to a specific chart which lists these guidelines but after reading your post it seems like you've got a renegade attitude about stocking your tanks and you would think the chart didn't apply to you. Aquarium Fish: Tropical Freshwater Fish and Saltwater Fish for Home Aquariums has a wonderful library of fishes and list their general physical requirements.

Catherine

No, not a renegade at all....or maybe...I don't know. I do like to try new things. But as you can see, the difference between salt and fresh is quite extreme and if it is 0ne inch for 10 Gallons then I do have a problem. To be direct, what I menat by the professional comment is the fact that I will get various answers to the same questions if enough people respond. For instance one of my LFS has a 1.5 gallon nano with 2 fish in it, bad lighting and negligible filtration with a few corals (3-4), a snail and a crab. It is THRIVING as I have watched it for well over a year. This is amazing to me and defies logical advice. If I posted this as my tank I would be called a moron if my fish died or a professional if it did well....I consider it care and a great deal of luck. I once had an 8 Gallon show tank with 34 neon and cardinal tetras in it..which again defied the logic or presumptions of over 34" of fish in a tank "designed" for 8". It was because of my attention to it. The filtration and water changes were key. Again, which is why I ask about marine tanks. Is it more critical to follow general rules or apply attention to the abilities and experience in these biotopes? I really do not know. What I do know is that I got slammed for taking what action I could based on ability and circumstance... but this is okay. It is what the forum is for.

 

[Bifferwine]

You can push the rules, for sure. I had 13 fish in my old 55 gallon tank -- more than double the "recommended" amount of fish. But you have to be comfortable and have some experience under your belt in order to know when pushing the envelope just might work and pay off, or when you're going to crash and burn. I was familiar enough with the fishes needs that I was able to pick out 13 fish that were perfectly synchronized, utilizing different habitats so they didn't get territorial with each other, and utilized different food sources so they'd take care of my tank for me and not go hungry. I also had one hell of a sump/refugium setup for filtration.

After being in the hobby a while, you also learn to recognize signals that your tank and animals are sending you -- when there's trouble. Those of us that have kept tanks for years can probably tell you exactly what our nitrate and pH levels are just by looking at our animals. Most of us can tell what the temperature of the tank is just by dipping a finger in. The more time you spend in this hobby, the more in tune you get with the processes occurring in the tank, and the more familiar you are with these processes, the more comfortable you can be trying new things and pushing the limit.

 

[Aqua Boy]

Ich will live perfectly fine above 80 degrees -- in fact, warmer temps will only accelerate its reproduction.

???For Marine Versions???

Based on my references this is what I have learned over the years:


The Ich life cycle is temperature dependent. Higher temperatures within its livable range speed up every stage of the life cycle, while the lower temperatures will slow it down. At 18°C/64°F the cycle takes 10-12 days to complete. It has been found that Ich does not infect new fish at 29.4°C/85°F (Johnson, 1976), stops reproducing at 30°C/86°F (Dr. Nick St. Erne, DVM, pers. comm.), and dies at 32°C/89.5°F (Meyer, 1984)

I do not believe the marine tank can sustain this though correct?

Also, Now that Yote has chimed in, which I also appreciate, I have an experienced moderator telling me that the bioload does not matter so much...but other posts telling me it does. Sooooo....LOL.....which is it? ( I am hoping someone sees the reason for my thought process now. :shock::D:frustrat:)

 

[Bifferwine]

The bioload does matter -- if you have not picked your fish correctly (which you haven't), if you have a small tank (which you do), and do not have sufficient filtration or water volume (which you don't). It is especially important when you are not experienced enough to read your tank... It takes years to figure out exactly what's going on in there, and to know how to take care of it. A reef tank is not even considered "mature" enough to be able to support an anemone until it's at least a year old.

Temperatures in the low 80s are safe for marine tanks -- especially if those temps are stable. Large swings in temps are more dangerous than consistently high, stable temps. My tanks stay between 80 and 84 degrees at all times.

Anything in the high 80s is going to kill your inverts. Your fish may be able to survive, but not all of them will. Ich will not be impacted until the tank gets into the high 80s -- but at that point, everything else will suffer as well.

 

[Aqua Boy]

Thanks!

 

[Bifferwine]

You can't treat your tank for ich without a separate quarantine tank. Anything that is effective against ich is also an effective killer of other inverts. There is no such thing as a "reef-safe" ich treatment. Chemicals sold as such just don't work.

Why so gung-ho about treating your tank for ich? Why not just let it be and let your fish be? If your fish are healthy and in a stress-free environment, they won't be impacted by the ich in your tank.

 

[Aqua Boy]

The bioload does matter -- if you have not picked your fish correctly (which you haven't), if you have a small tank (which you do), and do not have sufficient filtration or water volume (which you don't).

:zombie: Ouch...I thought I did all of that. (With the exception of the tang) Now what do I do?

Start with filtration for an 11 gallon tank....then recommend some fish. I may just end up stopping if ich is gonna be the norm.